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Thread: Search for missing US WW2 airmen in Arundel field

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    Default Search for missing US WW2 airmen in Arundel field

    Hello All,
    Pse be aware of https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-57663496
    HTH
    Peter Davies
    Meteorology is a science; good meteorology is an art!
    We might not know - but we might know who does!

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    jonheyworth (30th June 2021)

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    Default Re: Current News Item

    Thanks for the heads-up Peter.

    More information about the B-24 in question here:

    http://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/9871

    Regards

    Simon
    Researching R.A.F. personnel from the North East of England

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    Default Re: Current News Item

    According to the JCCC all military aircraft sites (in the UK) are protected under the Protection of Military remains Act 1986. It is illegal to disturb a crash site without a licence issued by them.

    Licences are only issued when it can be proven that there are NO human remains present.

    It will be interesting to see what happens here.

    From MOD website -

    A licence is required to excavate any military aircraft crash site in the United Kingdom, irrespective of whether the aircraft was in the service of the British, American, German or other nation’s armed forces.
    A licence will not be issued if human remains are likely to be found at the site.
    A licence cannot be issued if significant amounts of unexploded ordnance (bombs) are believed to be present at the site.

    Regards, Mike
    Last edited by lancasterlm342; 30th June 2021 at 17:26.

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    Default Re: Current News Item

    I have no axe(s) to grind. I was not au fait with the Law. I merely drew the matter to attention because I knew there were those on the Forum who are interested (I did an archaeology degree when I retired, so I was interested in their techique(s). Be interesting to see what turns up! If anything more on this comes my way I will let you know! They must have got some sort of permissions? There may, of course, be some religious requirements. Don't know the religion(s) of the missing crew. Might be a pointer?
    HTH
    Peter Davies
    Meteorology is a science; good meteorology is an art!
    We might not know - but we might know who does!

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    Default Re: Current News Item

    This is that they do not seem to be an official research team such as the DPAA who send teams across the world, including Austria which I know of because of a personal connection over there. Who recently recovered remains and returned them to the US with full military dignity.

    This link shows procedures that are to be followed in the case of old armaments and/or human remains.

    https://historicengland.org.uk/image.../milaircsites/
    Last edited by Alex Smart; 1st July 2021 at 00:22.

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    Default Re: Current News Item

    Wow Alex

    MACR without a need for Fold3 login

    For the index see


    https://catalog.archives.gov/search?...naIdSort%20asc


    Paul

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    Default Re: Current News Item

    Alex

    That link doesn't seem to work. Here is a link to the relevant MOD site

    https://www.gov.uk/aviation-archaeology

    Mike

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    Default Re: Current News Item

    Hello,
    This seems to cover the main points of concern.

    Main points
    A licence is required to excavate any military aircraft crash site in the United Kingdom, irrespective of whether the aircraft was in the service of the British, American, German or other nation’s armed forces.

    A licence will not be issued] if human remains are likely to be found at the site.

    A licence cannot be issued if significant amounts of unexploded ordnance (bombs) are believed to be present at the site.

    All applications for a licence require the written support of the landowner to the excavation taking place.

    Additional requirements may have to be met, before a licence is issued to excavate a crash site in a national park or designated Site of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI).

    The MOD reserves the right to deploy its representatives to witness any excavations approved under the Protection of Military Remains Act.

    Outside the United Kingdom, international or British territorial waters, the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986 does not apply. Excavations of crash sites of British aircraft are be subject to the laws of the country concerned. However, MOD policy is to discourage disturbance of such sites unless necessary in respect of host government approved activities, like land reclamation or construction.

    So questions need to be answered including why any licence was issued if issued .

    Two crew are still unaccounted for, Montgomery and Holoka.
    Last edited by Alex Smart; 1st July 2021 at 17:33.

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    Default Re: Current News Item

    Hi Alex

    Your summary of the law is correct, however it appears that in this case the MOD has adopted a more liberal interpretation of the law. The organisation carrying out the excavation appears to be affiliated to the DPAA https://www.dpaa.mil/


    The MOD has indeed granted a licence based on the pretext that the aircraft belongs to the U.S.


    I have had dealings with the JCCC before and this afternoon received the following email -

    Barron, Rosemary D (DBS MilPers-JCCC Commem1 SO3) <Rosemary.Barron912@mod.gov.uk>

    Mike,

    Thank you for your email.

    The policy regarding the excavation of crash sites suspected to hold human remains has not changed.

    The aircraft concerned remains the property of the US Government. The DPAA requested permission from JCCC to excavate this aircraft under the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986. A licence was therefore granted to them as a military agency of US government wishing to excavate their own aircraft.

    I hope this clarifies the situation.

    Regards,

    Rosie Barron


    Miss R E Barron | SO3 Commemorations and Licencing | Joint Casualty& Compassionate Centre | Innsworth House | Imjin Barracks | Gloucester | GL3 1HW | 01452 712612 ex 6303 | Mil 95471 6303 | Skype 03001 523834


    There seem to be two takes on this. Firstly it could be argued that the granting of a licence is in contradiction to the law. Otherwise it could be stated that so long as the bodies are recovered and the families have their relatives returned then who cares. I spend a lot of time searching for lost airmen so I know where I stand. Good luck to them and blue skies.


    Mike
    Last edited by lancasterlm342; 1st July 2021 at 19:43.

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    Alex Smart (5th July 2021)

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