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Thread: Hurricane "NA680" in AIR81/14488?

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Hurricane "NA680" in AIR81/14488?

    Thanks Alan and Paul.

    I was actually contacted by Sgt. Southern's nephew at the end of December, who was hoping to find the ID for the Hurricane and came across my post. Hence my shameless bump of my post!

    He's going to try to get hold of a copy of the Air 81 file, together with the one Hurricane Z4036 of 55 OTU, in which Sgt. Southern was injured in an accident at Sutton Bridge in July 1941. I put him in contact with a researcher who copies files at the National Archives, so hopefully we'll be able to see if the Air 81 file can further enlighten us.

    Regards

    Simon
    Researching R.A.F. personnel from the North East of England

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    Default Re: Hurricane "NA680" in AIR81/14488?

    Hello again

    I've been given a copy of Air 81/14488, which has been copied by ARCRE for Sgt. Southern's nephew, who very kindly sent me a copy. The answer as to the Hurricane serial is none of those above!

    Here's the relevant page:

    Air 81/14488:

    Circumstantial Report – Hurricane II BD887
    1002392 Sgt. Southern, R.F.

    At 08.50 hours on 23rd May 1942, F/Lt. Morgan took off in Hurricane BM.989 with Sgt. Southern in Hurricane II BD.887 as his number two. They climbed towards Bardia and orbited at 25,000 feet. F/Lt. Morgan then climbed to 26,000 feet and noticed that Sgt. Southern was some considerable distance below him. He called Sgt. Southern on the R/T and he answered that he was receiving F/Lt. Morgan O.K. Apart from this F/Lt. Morgan could not get him to confirm his instructions to form up on him. F/Lt. Morgan was then sent off on two separate vectors. Sgt. Southern as far as he was aware did not follow him, and when F/Lt. Morgan returned to his patrol line he saw Sgt. Southern approaching him from the opposite direction about 1,000 feet below him. He called Sgt. Southern on the R/T but got no answer, and as F/Lt. Morgan was again vectored almost immediately he could not follow him. This was the last occasion on which he saw Sgt. Southern.

    At the end of his patrol, F/Lt. Morgan returned to base on his own and reported Sgt. Southern’s absence.

    The last time F/Lt. Morgan observed Sgt. Southern was at 25,000 feet going north over the sea bout five miles East of Bardia.

    At no time did F/lt. Morgan give Sgt. Southern ant orders to break away from him.


    As mentioned in the ORB Form 541, that suggests 'possible oxygen trouble.'

    The file is clearly marked with 'Hurricane NA680' and this is repeated in a cypher message in the file but as to the relevance...?

    Regards

    Simon
    Researching R.A.F. personnel from the North East of England

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    Default Re: Hurricane "NA680" in AIR81/14488?

    Simon,
    Thanks, good work.
    Andy

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    Default Re: Hurricane "NA680" in AIR81/14488?

    So it looks BM989 was KC-B and BD887 - KC-E.
    ORB p. 24.
    https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/D8396179
    https://www.facebook.com/Franciszek-Grabowski-241360809684411/

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    Default Re: Hurricane "NA680" in AIR81/14488?

    Franek

    Yes, it's good to tie in the two serials and codes, bearing in mind the entries in the O.R.B. just quote the code letters.

    I've just got the Form 78 for BD887 from the R.A.F. Museum, and it was S.o.C. on May 25th 1942, two days after Sgt. Southern went missing. The card states "S.O.C. FB 25-5-42" - the FB part is underlined on the card as shown. What could "FB" mean?

    Sgt. Southern had also claimed a Ju-88 damaged on March 12th 1942 flying Hurricane I KC-J on a convoy patrol.

    Regards

    Simon
    Researching R.A.F. personnel from the North East of England

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    Default Re: Hurricane "NA680" in AIR81/14488?

    Quote Originally Posted by wwrsimon View Post
    ng. The card states "S.O.C. FB 25-5-42" - the FB part is underlined on the card as shown. What could "FB" mean?

    Hi Simon

    https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documen...reviations.pdf

    FB = "Flying Battle" ? sounds appropriate.

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    Default Re: Hurricane "NA680" in AIR81/14488?

    Yes FA and FB are the main descriptors FA Flying Accident used where enemy action not presumed as cause, FB Flying Battle where cause is attributed to enemy action.

    It becomes complicated where the aircraft continued flying after the initial engagement. F1180 should all be FA but some have FB where battle damage led to the subsequent accident eg damaged u/c or what was initially considered FA was changed to FB when the accident investigation suggested shot down by intruder in the circuit.

    Ross
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    Copyright Ross McNeill 2015 to 2022 - All rights reserved.

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    Default Re: Hurricane "NA680" in AIR81/14488?

    Many thanks for clearing that up Jagan and Ross, much appreciated.

    Simon
    Researching R.A.F. personnel from the North East of England

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    Default Re: Hurricane "NA680" in AIR81/14488?

    Hello again

    I've got hold of Ronald Fred Southern's service file via his nephew, and have a couple of quick queries.

    He was with 607 Squadron from August 4th 1941 until October 23rd 1941, then posted to S.H.Q. Manston and to the 'E. S. Office' on the same date.

    He was then posted off to the Middle East, where he went to the delightfully named 'Wastage Pool' on November 1st 1941. He was there 19 days before going to the M.E. Pool then to A.H.Q. W.D. and finally to 238 Squadron on November 29th 1941.

    Can anyone tell me what the 'E. S. Office' may be? It has something written under it which may be Glasgow...?

    And what was the purpose of the Wastage Pool?

    Many thanks

    Simon
    Researching R.A.F. personnel from the North East of England

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    Default Re: Hurricane "NA680" in AIR81/14488?

    Hi Simon,

    https://www.afhistory.org/wp-content...001_winter.pdf

    page 52: WASTAGE POOL - A PERSON IN TRANSIT, AWAITING POSTING/ASSIGNMENT

    Regards

    Mojmir

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