Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 13

Thread: RAF Aircraft Loss Cards WW2

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Limerick, Ireland.
    Posts
    534
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 18 Times in 16 Posts

    Default RAF Aircraft Loss Cards WW2

    It seems these cards were made out when a crew went missing or suffered a casualty. The 'Lancasterbombers.net' website has many of these cards free to view, almost all for bombers, and very useful they are. I have three questions regarding these cards.
    1/ Was there an official or Air Ministry Form number or name for these ?
    2/ Were similar cards made out for Fighter, Coastal or Overseas Commnads ?
    3/ Where are the originals kept today ?

    Regards,

    Martin Gleeson.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    550
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts

    Default Re: RAF Aircraft Loss Cards WW2

    In reverse
    3) the cards are held on microfilm at the RAFM... under normal circumstances you can buy paper prints from the film or copies of whole reels...
    2) cards were completed by all Commands and all types
    1) at the RAFM they are normally referred to as Accident Cards... AM Form 1180

    Steve

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to SteveBrooking For This Useful Post:

    Alex Smart (31st August 2021)

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Dublin
    Posts
    4,670
    Thanks
    6
    Thanked 57 Times in 53 Posts

    Default Re: RAF Aircraft Loss Cards WW2

    I think Martins referring to these Loss Cards and not the F1180

    https://www.lancasterbombers.net/loss-cards/
    Dennis Burke
    - Dublin

    Foreign Aircrew and Aircraft Ireland 1939-1945
    www.ww2irishaviation.com

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    550
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts

    Default Re: RAF Aircraft Loss Cards WW2

    thank you Dennis

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    6,054
    Thanks
    60
    Thanked 253 Times in 236 Posts

    Default Re: RAF Aircraft Loss Cards WW2

    I asked the guy who put them on LancasterBombers he said "thinks that other commands had loss cards he says RAF Hendon has copies other than that try AHB"

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Limerick, Ireland.
    Posts
    534
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 18 Times in 16 Posts

    Default Re: RAF Aircraft Loss Cards WW2

    Steve,

    my apologies for not making my request clearer. Dennis and Paul have indicated better the type of card I am after. I am very familiar with the Form 1180 Aircraft Accident Forms and I have copies of many of these.
    The type of aircraft (crew) loss card on the 'lancasterbombers.net' website are a great resource and often the only primary evidence to tie a certain crew to a certain aircraft serial. Added to that the crew information is often more extensive than say, an ORB.

    Regards,

    Martin.

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to Martin Gleeson For This Useful Post:

    Alex Smart (31st August 2021)

  9. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Limerick, Ireland.
    Posts
    534
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 18 Times in 16 Posts

    Default Re: RAF Aircraft Loss Cards WW2

    With reference to my questions on these loss cards I contacted the RAF Museum and had a reply from them this morning. They stated that these Bomber Command Loss Cards do not have an Air Ministry form number. Also that they have no examples of similar loss cards for other commands and that their set of B.C. loss cards is a microfiche copy of the original set held by the Air Historical Branch.

    My interest in this matter is partly driven by the fact that on the 'Lancasterbombers.net' website one can find a few Coastal Command losses in 1940 and 1941 and quite a few for the Air Component section of the B.A.F.F. during 1940 - never a part of Bomber Command.

    Regards,

    Martin.

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to Martin Gleeson For This Useful Post:

    paulmcmillan (14th September 2021)

  11. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Bewdley, UK
    Posts
    2,820
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 31 Times in 30 Posts

    Default Re: RAF Aircraft Loss Cards WW2

    Hi Martin,

    I had looked into the lack of RAF/AM Form number on the BC Loss cards a while back and also found that most were entered on card stock with a 4/44 (April 1944) production date. Making almost all a retrospective recording operation.

    I think that this later sweep of Personnel Files accounts for odd entries from other Commands.

    http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/sho...-Creation-Date

    Ross
    The Intellectual Property contained in this message has been assigned specifically to this web site.
    Copyright Ross McNeill 2015 to 2021 - All rights reserved.

  12. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Limerick, Ireland.
    Posts
    534
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 18 Times in 16 Posts

    Default Re: RAF Aircraft Loss Cards WW2

    Hello Ross,

    Thanks for that information. It is an interesting point. So those cards were made out from mid-1944 at the earliest, but that raises another question as to what source(s) were used. I presume what we now refer to as the AIR 81 personnel casualty files were the basis for these cards although I expect the allocation of the AIR 81 numbers was done postwar.

    Regards,

    Martin.

  13. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Bewdley, UK
    Posts
    2,820
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 31 Times in 30 Posts

    Default Re: RAF Aircraft Loss Cards WW2

    Now that is opening a can of worms - I lacked the access to AIR81 to cross reference.

    The BC Loss cards on the microfilm are broadly of three types

    Blank with edge codes unused
    Front with lined info boxes, edge codes unused
    Front and rear with lined info boxes edge codes used

    Take May 1942
    First 2 cards blank type (but clipped corner on different orientation - suggesting cards not intended for edge code sorting).
    Next card Front and rear with lined info boxes, edge codes used - year and day codes transposed by clerk and squadron coded as 146 not 106. Ref has 20A and this is repeated in full on reverse.
    Next cards blank type - but a few show edge code of at sea opened up - suggesting that only this sorting was preformed by card drop methods.

    forward to next front and rear info box card edge codes used - again year and day codes transposed - squadron units not used. Ref has 159A and this is repeated in narrative on reverse.

    Now look at the card for W1050 on 6/5/42 - no use of the NonOp/Gardening/Day etc but squadron transferred. Multiple ref which from narrative suggest revision over time but from same handwriting suggest all transcribed at same time.

    I do not think generally Ref is file that is now the AIR 81 - the section "Former Reference in Original Department" on TNA discovery shows the RAF Registry file number eg P 352878/40 for Sgt W E Harding as it does not match the style. It may be item numbers from the file but I have not done this comparison to identify. These P references are sequential and suffix by year. They also match the File Ref box in F1180 for fatality.

    What I do see for the BC Loss cards is a use of card stock that was designed for information collation but no desire to use in some cases, moving through selective sorting on one criteria to full sorting capability but living with a large part of the card set not being of interest to full sort.

    If it was all done post 1944 I would have expected the same record keeping standard to be used - and early cards being redrawn in the new standard.

    My best theory at the moment is that around late 1941 to mid 1942 the hollerith system of cards being brought in for F1180 was expanded in to answer a record keeping problem for Bomber Command. Blank cards were used for the initial transcription with the intent to revisit and open up the edge codes when the collation system was agreed. This was only partly done on this card set with only sea loss being of retrospective interest. Around April of 1944 some earlier cards circa May 1942 onwards were retranscribed with edge codes and narrative filled in (but as seen errors of coding were tolerated). After April 1944 all cards are on the fully printed format.

    Ross
    The Intellectual Property contained in this message has been assigned specifically to this web site.
    Copyright Ross McNeill 2015 to 2021 - All rights reserved.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •