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Thread: 145 Sqn Hurricane losses - 7 November 1940

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    Default 145 Sqn Hurricane losses - 7 November 1940

    145 Sqn lost no fewer than five Hurricanes on 7 November 1940, all from B Flight. Reference to the ORB AIR 27/984/14 at https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/D8388963
    shows (the serials listed in the ORB omit the leading letter which I have filled in):

    (V)6889 F/Lt Bungay - injured [FCL Volume 1 agrees] - we agree: http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=V6889
    (P)2683 P/O Ashton - uninjured [not listed in FCL Volume 1] - we have no info on P2683, but I think it was lost in France with 87 Sqn on 19 May 40
    (P)2720 P/O Weir - missing [FCL Volume 1 says serial was P2770] - we agree with ORB: http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=P2720
    (P)8816 Sgt McConnell - injured [FCL Volume 1 agrees] - we agree: http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=P8816
    (P)2924 Sgt Sykes - injured [FCL Volume 1 agrees] - we agree: http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=P2924
    (note that I have to do some tidying in our database to add crew names etc)

    The entries in bold are the problems.
    The reference to P2683 is a bit of an enigma. It appears regularly in the ORB on ops during October and early November, and there is also a mention of (P)2863 being flown by the same pilot (this also had no connection with 145 Sqn as far as I can see so was almost certainly a simple typo for (P)2683).
    Now turning to the mention of P2770 in FCL Volume 1. This does indeed appear to have been a 145 Sqn aircraft (according to Air-Britain serials), and we do indeed say it was lost on 7 Nov 40: http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=P2770
    The Air-Britain serials book on the other hand says it was lost on 7 Oct 40 (nothing mentioned in the ORB).
    However, this aircraft never appears in the ORB for Oct 40 or Nov 40, only (P)2720 which flew almost every day.

    So, to make any progress:
    a) can anyone confirm my assessment that P2683 was lost in France with 87 Sqn?
    b) does anyone have access to the record card for P2770 to confirm its squadron assignment?

    Any other input would be very welcome!

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    Default Re: 145 Sqn Hurricane losses - 7 November 1940

    I have Ashton in R2683.

    John Engelsted.

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    Default Re: 145 Sqn Hurricane losses - 7 November 1940

    Doh..
    Thanks John, I failed to consider R2683 (it's from that small batch of 10 that I always seem to forget). That solves one of the issues.
    We now need to solve the P2720 v P2770 problem.
    Andy

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    Default Re: 145 Sqn Hurricane losses - 7 November 1940

    Hi all,

    Looks like it should be P2720:-
    AIR 81/4172 -Flying Officer A N C Weir: missing; Hurricane P2720, 145 Squadron, shot down, enemy action, 7 November 1940

    Gerry

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    Default Re: 145 Sqn Hurricane losses - 7 November 1940

    Andy

    Thanks for your analysis. I'm not able to add any more, just gone over the days events again with several reference books and I find that in he cases of P2720 and P2770 there is something different written wherever I look. The problem is spreading; Difford of 607S has also had an allocation to P2770!. http://sussexhistoryforum.co.uk/inde...c=15453.0;wap2.

    P2683 is listed as a loss in France in BoFT&N, as you say, but I note the above introduction of R2683 by John which is a much better fit.

    DaveW

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    Default Re: 145 Sqn Hurricane losses - 7 November 1940

    According to the Form 78 for P2770 it went to 44 MU on July 31st 1940 and never returned to 145 Squadron. So my money is on P2720.

    John Engelsted

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    Default Re: 145 Sqn Hurricane losses - 7 November 1940

    John,
    Thanks, it looks like you may have sorted this one. Perusal of the relevant 145 Sqn ORBs shows that on 19 July 40:
    "Pilot Officer M.A Newling landed at Shoreham Aerodrome with the undercarriage of his aircraft (Hurricane P2270) retracted. It is thought that his aircraft was shot through the Glycol Tank and Hydraulic pipe".
    Those reading carefully will notice that the serial is recorded wrongly (P2270 is a Battle serial). Fortunately the F541 confirms that the correct serial was P2770.
    There is no further record of it in the F541s for Aug/Sep/Oct 40, so I think it is safe to say that it was damaged beyond repair in the 19 Jul 40 incident, then despatched to 44 MU where it was SOC.
    So, to summarize, the correct situation for 7 Nov 40 seems to be:

    (V)6889 F/Lt Bungay - injured
    (R)2683 P/O Ashton - uninjured - force-landed on Isle of Wight - repaired and became Hurricane II BV163 (maybe why it was not listed in FCL 1?)
    (P)2720 P/O Weir - missing (serial corrects FCL 1)
    (P)8816 Sgt McConnell - injured
    (P)2924 Sgt Sykes - injured

    Thanks to all who contributed. I will update our database later this week.
    Andy

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    Default Re: 145 Sqn Hurricane losses - 7 November 1940

    FCL vol1 revised edition has -
    7 November 1940
    145 Sqn
    V6889 - Bungey.
    P2770 - Ashton
    P2720 - Weir DFC.
    P8816 - McConnell
    P2924 - Sykes
    249 Sqn
    V7676"J" - Neil.
    Last edited by Alex Smart; 26th April 2022 at 12:38.

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    Default Re: 145 Sqn Hurricane losses - 7 November 1940

    Alex,
    Thanks, but I am at a bit of a loss to see how that conclusion for Ashton can have been reached.
    Andy

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    Default Re: 145 Sqn Hurricane losses - 7 November 1940

    Bungey not Bungay. Full name: Robert Wilton Bungey

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