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Thread: ". . . retaining the rank of . . ." - what is its significance ?

  1. #11
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    Default Re: ". . . retaining the rank of . . ." - what is its significance ?

    This officer below shows some of the fairly normal career 'progressions' - pre war short service commission,at the end of which he is transferred to the reserve in 1943/44 and immediately called up for RAF service (would have just been a 'paper' exercise),permanent commission 1946 but had to revert from Gp Capt to Sqn Ldr.

    From RAF Unit Histories (at random)

    (A) P/O (prob) 18.05.1937 [39736]
    P/O 18.03.1938
    F/O 11.10.1939
    F/Lt. 11.10.1940
    (T) Sq.Ldr. 01.12.1941
    (WS) Sq.Ldr. 22.10.1942
    (A) W/Cdr. 22.07.1942
    (WS) W/Cdr. 01.01.1944
    (A) Gp.Capt. (1945?)
    Sq.Ldr. 25.06.1946, seniority 01.09.1945 (reld 1946)
    Distinguished Service Order DSO 16.02.1943 *
    Distinguished Flying Cross DFC 29.04.1941 ** [investiture 18.07.41]
    Mention in Despatches MID 01.01.1946 ?

    * Wing Commander Haysom has been on operational flying since the commencement of the war. He has destroyed at least six enemy aircraft and has twice been shot down himself. He has led his wing on many fighter-bomber and long distance flights. He has always displayed the utmost determination. The success achieved by the wing has been largely due to this officer’s skill and courage.
    ** This officer has been engaged on operational flying since the war began. He has displayed great keenness in his efforts to seek and engage the enemy and has destroyed at least five of their aircraft. Education: Durban High School; Natal University College; Edinburgh University (BSc).
    Went to UK in 1936 to study medicine.

    18.05.1937 commissioned, RAF (General Duties Branch) [short service commission]
    05.06.1937 Flying Training School, Brize Norton
    08.01.1938 staff pilot, School of Naval Co-operation, Ford
    01.11.1938 - 09.1941 79 Squadron RAF (Biggin Hill) (from 08.1940 as Flight Commander, from 06.1941 as Commanding Officer) (DSO)
    09.1941 - 07.1942 instructor, 51 Operational Training Unit RAF
    19.07.1942 - 21.07.1942 260 Squadron RAF
    22.07.1942 - ? Wing Leader, 239 Wing RAF (Western Desert)
    Desert Air Force (Italy)
    1943/44? transferred to reserve (and called up for Air Force service)
    25.06.1946 permanent commission

  2. #12
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    Default Re: ". . . retaining the rank of . . ." - what is its significance ?

    Quote Originally Posted by PNK View Post
    Did the rules change post war as I seem to recall from somewhere (ORBs?) that those who opted to stay on in the RAF would drop down a rank. Was this because many were promoted to keep the hierarchy intact during the war? Or was it in recognition of the early war beef that many long serving RAF officers who had worked hard to attain their ranks in the thirties were often overtaken by the new kids serving only months?

    Probably as much to do with force reduction as anything else PNK - the forces of most countries shrank rapidly post WW2 - it was generally referred to as being 'RIFTED' in the USA (reduction in force) - if you were lucky you got to 'stay in' but losing one or 2 'ranks',many were just demobbed and certainly with the RAF some ex commissioned pilots rejoined as Sgt Pilots so as to carry on flying,finding a civvy aviation job post war was not initially very easy depending on background and flying background.
    During the war the RAF would have required so many officers of a certain rank to operate all the squadrons etc but in the much reduced peacetime air force the requirement for high ranking officers was much much smaller.'Wartime' Ranks and having all wartime 'joiners' as Volunteer Reserve was the obvious way of being able to control the 'Establishment' numbers of officers in the smaller post war RAF.
    This happened in various ways with most countries and services.

    I have moved this post here to accompany my other post above (#11)

  3. #13
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    Default Re: ". . . retaining the rank of . . ." - what is its significance ?

    Malcolm
    Many thanks, though it is still not quite clear to me. I understand that acting rank could have been paid or unpaid, and it could have been up to two ranks over substantive. The only thing I am not sure, is, when the one had to remove stripes, and return to the old rank.
    I am not sure with Tempy. I understand the difference, at least I think so. I have seen the rank for the first time in the records of the RPAF in the late 1950s - Tempy ACdre. I have not seen it in any wartime records, though of course it does mean nothing - such nuances often do not appear in ORBs.
    That said, I am not sure how to understand your sample. Flt Lt, acting Wg Cdr would be promoted to Sqn Ldr (WS) after six months, and later may then be promoted to Temp Sqn Ldr, act Wg Cdr. Do you mean that WS Sqn Ldr may become Tempy Sqn Ldr post-war?
    In regard of post-war recruitment. I am aware of Polish officers joining RAF post-war in Wt Off rank. Not sure how it happened formally.
    Franek
    https://www.facebook.com/Franciszek-Grabowski-241360809684411/

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    Default Re: ". . . retaining the rank of . . ." - what is its significance ?

    From 'Hansard' 1944.

    https://api.parliament.uk/historic-h...cers-promotion

    Sir R. Glyn asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he can state the systems of promotion in the R.A.F. for air crews and officers engaged on ground duties, respectively; whether the distinction between acting rank and temporary rank is governed by any particular regulation; to what extent officers are debarred from any promotion if not promoted from acting temporary rank; and what is the position of Volunteer Reserve officers, many of whom are fairly senior and who had seen service either in the Army or Navy before joining up for employment during this war.
    Sir A. Sinclair replied - The scheme of war-time promotion for officers in the R.A.F. can be briefly described as follows:

    Time-Promotion.

    Officers of the General Duties Branch (aircrews) are commissioned in the rank of pilot officer. After six months' service in that rank they are granted time-promotion to flying officer and after a further 18 months time-promotion to flight lieutenant, subject in each case to satisfactory service. For other officers there is time-promotion to the rank of flying officer after six months' satisfactory service in the rank of pilot officer, except in the Medical and Dental Branches where officers are entered as flying officers and are granted time-promotion to flight lieutenant after one year's satisfactory service.

    Temporary Promotion.

    Promotions to ranks outside the scope of time-promotions are made within the war establishment on the recommendations of Central Promotion Boards held at the Air Ministry.

    Acting Promotion.

    Acting rank is granted to officers employed in posts graded in a rank above their existing rank pending the availability of an officer of the appropriate substantive or temporary rank, and is tenable only so long as officer is filling such a post. Acting ranks up to wing commander may be granted by commands; the acting rank of group captain and above is granted by the Air Ministry.

    Officers who obtain an acting rank two or more steps above their basic rank and hold it for certain periods are given war substantive rank one rank below the acting rank and they cannot drop below this in war if they lose their acting rank.

    Promotion Boards for temporary rank are held half-yearly and the claims of officers, whether holding acting rank or not, who have not been selected by one Board are considered by subsequent Boards.

    As for the last part of the Question, the claims to promotion to temporary rank of R.A.F.V.R. officers with previous service are fully considered along with those of other officers. Promotions are of course limited to vacancies.

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    Default Re: ". . . retaining the rank of . . ." - what is its significance ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski View Post
    Malcolm
    Many thanks, though it is still not quite clear to me. I understand that acting rank could have been paid or unpaid, and it could have been up to two ranks over substantive. The only thing I am not sure, is, when the one had to remove stripes, and return to the old rank.
    I am not sure with Tempy. I understand the difference, at least I think so. I have seen the rank for the first time in the records of the RPAF in the late 1950s - Tempy ACdre. I have not seen it in any wartime records, though of course it does mean nothing - such nuances often do not appear in ORBs.
    That said, I am not sure how to understand your sample. Flt Lt, acting Wg Cdr would be promoted to Sqn Ldr (WS) after six months, and later may then be promoted to Temp Sqn Ldr, act Wg Cdr. Do you mean that WS Sqn Ldr may become Tempy Sqn Ldr post-war?
    In regard of post-war recruitment. I am aware of Polish officers joining RAF post-war in Wt Off rank. Not sure how it happened formally.
    Franek
    I think Post 14 answers your question. If an officer gave up his acting rank he would remove the rank braid of the acting rank.

    Malcolm

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    Default Re: ". . . retaining the rank of . . ." - what is its significance ?

    Thanks Malcolm. The question arose, because I have not met Tempy officer during my research on WWII, in fact Tempy or Actg ranks are usually not noted as such in typical wartime records like ORBs, I recall them from personal files only. Also, I have not noticed on photos officers removing their stripes, but perhaps I was not looking closely enough.
    Franek
    https://www.facebook.com/Franciszek-Grabowski-241360809684411/

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    Default Re: ". . . retaining the rank of . . ." - what is its significance ?

    Acting ranks were not normally recognized in RAF (Officer) Lists during WW2, except for Air Rank officers if I remember correctly, probably to cut down the size of the publication which otherwise might have ended up 25% thicker! However, I would say that a fair proportion of the appointments in all operational and training units, squadrons, Wings, Groups, Commands and higher would have been of acting rank for the duration of their appointment. In a Bomber Command squadron, for instance, that might include the CO, most if not all flight commanders, and all "leaders", ditto for training units.

  9. #18
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    Default Re: ". . . retaining the rank of . . ." - what is its significance ?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Duxbury View Post
    Acting ranks were not normally recognized in RAF (Officer) Lists during WW2, except for Air Rank officers if I remember correctly, probably to cut down the size of the publication which otherwise might have ended up 25% thicker! However, I would say that a fair proportion of the appointments in all operational and training units, squadrons, Wings, Groups, Commands and higher would have been of acting rank for the duration of their appointment. In a Bomber Command squadron, for instance, that might include the CO, most if not all flight commanders, and all "leaders", ditto for training units.
    Yes, it seems so, but in most cases acting ranks were not annotated in ORBs, so it is a bit of nightmare for research. I guess one would have an unlimited access to personal records to sort it out. I am not sure if RAF wartime routines are available anywhere.
    https://www.facebook.com/Franciszek-Grabowski-241360809684411/

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