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Thread: Nachtjagd Losses / BC Claims?

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    Default Nachtjagd Losses / BC Claims?

    Hi All

    We're now very well served for details of Bomber Command Losses (Chorley) and Nachtjagd Claims (Tony Wood, Foreman et al, and now Theo Boiten), but is there anything corresponding and available here (UK) looking the other way: books covering Nachtjagd losses and BC/Intruder claims?

    If not, someone's next project?... There you are Theo, your next job!

    :-)

    Happy new year one and all

    Ian

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    hello,

    There are two books about night fighter losses, by Michael Balss. I don't have any but I think one covers the 'material' side and the other the 'human' side, or something like that. Other will answer better about these books. Should really get them for my library.

    About the Intruder claims, there's a very well done table at the end of "confounding the Reich" by Bowman & Cushing, but it covers only No. 100 Group (Bomber Support), so you have to use also R.A.F. Fighter Command victory claims volumes by John Foreman to get some Fighter Command Squadrons claims (such as No. 85 Squadron for example).


    Joss

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    Default Nachtjagd Losses / BC Claims

    Hi Joss, thanks for that.

    I don't recall ever seeing Michael Balss's books. Do you happen to know the titles and whether they're available in the UK? (are they in English?). They must have missed my radar so I'll have to take a look out.

    I have got 'Confounding the Reich', both the original one and the re-write. I was thinking more about claims made by BC gunners as I suspect that for most of the war they were shooting down more nightfigfhters than the Intruders were. But finding those details would be a huge task and I don't know there'd be any easy way of finding the data. Looking at every sortie report for every BC squadron would be a massive task and would keep someone busy for a few years!

    I guess the Air Combat Reports (can't think of the proper title or reference offhand) up at Kew would be a starter but I think I recall they're not a comprehensive record of all those combats / claims.

    Thanks again

    Ian

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    hello,

    One of the book is "Deutsche Nachtjagd Personnel Verluste". It's in German and I think the other might be too.

    About BC gunner claims, they are filed in the AIR 50 section at Kew, in microfilms. Fighter Squadron first, then Bomber Squadron, starting from AIR 50/178 (No. 7 Squadron, april 41 to september 44) up to AIR 50/301.

    The only time I searched in this section was for a combat report for No. 239 Squadron, indeed a BS Mosquito Squadron, in AIR 50/240, so I can't tell for the other combat reports.

    There are also some tables in various Bomber Command archives, in AIR 14 and other places at Kew.

    Hope this helps

    Joss

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    Well, the ultimate reference, published last month is the 2 volume authoritative work by Theo Boiten and Rod Mackenzie "The Nachtjagd War Diaries" published by Red KIte. The more I read it, the more impressed I am by the sheer quality of the research, it is mind-blowing especially when it comes to the last year of the war (Vol 2) which details the ECM tactics for the raids, the times that the bombers were picked up by the German radar and their response, the losses for the night on both sides etc etc. The books are expensive, I paid 40.00 each at the launch at Telford, though I know some people have bought them much more cheaply.
    You can follow the whole exciting story going back to 2006 by reading this from LEMB:
    http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=2179&st=0&start=0

    Regards
    Max

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    Default Nachtjagd losses / BC Claims

    Hi Max

    I agree, although I've not yet had time to sit down and go through them properly. My copies of NJWDs only arrived shortly before Christmas and it's been a bit hectic since then. In the meantime the books have pride of place on the bookshelves and get an occasional brief look-at when I have a mo'. Best 80 quid I've spent for a long time.

    And thanks again, Joss for that extra info.

    Subject to what's in NJWD (as I've said, not yet had a chance to look very closely at them) it looks though like unless I can learn German and maybe get Balss's book(s), I'm still not going to find what I was asking about: a book giving a comprehensive list of BC combats and then (either separately in another book or, ideally, combined into one) matching details of NJ losses. A sort of "reverse Theo Boiten / Rod MacKenzie": showing which bomber may have shot down which fighter.

    Oh well, if not available yet, maybe one day!...

    Cheers all.

    Ian

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    There's a project for you Ian!! Somebody has to do it.
    Max

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    Quote Originally Posted by ianh View Post
    Hi Max

    Subject to what's in NJWD (as I've said, not yet had a chance to look very closely at them) it looks though like unless I can learn German and maybe get Balss's book(s), I'm still not going to find what I was asking about: a book giving a comprehensive list of BC combats and then (either separately in another book or, ideally, combined into one) matching details of NJ losses. A sort of "reverse Theo Boiten / Rod MacKenzie": showing which bomber may have shot down which fighter.

    Oh well, if not available yet, maybe one day!...
    Hi Ian,

    I have been looking for information about claims by New Zealand airgunners during last few years. I would would welcome a book a like the one you are suggesting but as mentioned by others it would be very difficult to make it complete.

    During my search for information I have found that many claims have no surviving Combat reports. Squadron ORBs give some information but not much details. If a book like this one ever will be written I tink it needs to be a team effort.

    Cheers
    Peter

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    And of course one of, perhaps the major problem, is substantiating the claims. For example, the rear gunner of Lancaster PB806, piloted by W/Cdr Eric Le Page Langlois, claims to have shot down the Bf 110 that had attacked, and shot down their Lancaster. As he (the r/g) descended by parachute he said he saw the enemy plane crash and burn on the ground, but the nachtjagd lost no fighters that night (3 March 1945) as far as I've been able to determine.
    regards
    Max

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    hello

    I agree with you that this will be a huge undertaking. And we'll be confronted by the same "overclaiming" problems that we find with day fighters and U.S. air gunners.

    I'm interested, for example, in a Bf-110G-4 which crashed in my area in late June 1944, information confirmed from French archives and the German crew clearly identified. I hope one day, to be able to identify the air gunner(s) who probably shot this 110 down, probably belonging to No. 6 Group. I'll have to check lots of ORBs and Combat reports to see what's matching the best, and who knows...

    Indeed, a lot of work. Monk's work.

    Joss

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