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Thread: 101 Sqdn - Alfred James Clayton 1811224

  1. #11
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    Default

    Hi Paul
    Errol Martyn has spent a lot of time and effort on his work and is pretty thorough, so what he has put in Post 7 seems to establish that your wife's uncle did not get out of the a/c and what is on the link I gave you must be treated with extreme caution.It is not quite impossible for Clayton to have survived and be tortured and murdered but it must be very doubtful.
    Regards
    Dick

  2. #12
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    Default SDO Clayton 101 Sqn

    Having read Martin Sugarman's definite research study on 101 SDOs I have spoken to him on several occasions. I have always found his research excellently footnoted, his "Jewish RAF Special Operators in Radio Counter Measures with 101 Squadron" being no different.

    The allegation that Special Operator 1811224 A. J. H. Clayton was captured on the night of 30 March 1944 when his Lancaster was shot down and was "probably tortured to death for information on the SOs" was given to Sugarman in a telephone interview done with Clayton's brother David in Canvey in August of 2000.

    Perhaps the Elliot/Clayton families should make inquiries as to where David heard these allegations?

  3. #13
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    Default Thankyou to all for the speedy responses

    Dear all,

    Firstly, thankyou all so much for the immediate information and details you have given, most I have not seen before. I am amazed at how much is available out there and I need some time to look into and log the details you have given me especially about the NZ crew. I didnt know anything about it being their 2nd tour or where they had been.

    Thanks Eddie for your reply, I did mean Aircrew reception centre and thanks for the info on Bridgenorth.

    Theo, I will look into the shot down time but I think some of the other members may find this out before I do. I do have some information from a couple of notes from Dillenburg residents so I will double check them.

    I need to mention an important point here about the information relating to the capture of A J H Clayton. I have discussed this about 4 years ago with my wifes other uncle David when I was helping with the research and it is something they were told/heard about but I said I would not look into this. My main purpose of this research was to find out morre about the other crew members and hopefully photos of them or Albert "Known as Jimmy" and to keep all of the info for future generations. The future generations enquiries may even come from the other crew members.

    Maybe I need to look into the NZ crews 1st tour for photos as it may not have been so secret as the 101 ops.

    Anyway, thanks again everyone and please keep the information coming however small it may seem. I will post any further information that I come across outside of this website just in case it is of help to anyone else,

    Paul

  4. #14
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    hello Paul

    I think you have misunderstood a point : the New-Zealanders were not on their second tour, they were flying their second operation (from their first tour). Especially when you read the short biographies given by Errol, you'll see no postings to an operational Squadron before No. 101 Squadron. Actually, their training is quite straightforward.

    It is also possible that A.J. Clayton also flew with another Squadron, to fill in a vacancy for example. Only a check in the Squadron ORB would confirm this or not. This represents only a fortnight presence in the Squadron, so two operations in a short period is reasonable.

    The question with the pilot remains because he may have flown as "2nd dickey" pilot with another crew before taking his own crew on ops. Again, only the Squadron ORB would clarify this point.

    So the best would be, if you can, visit The National Archives in Kew, to check the ORB for March 1944 and also the WO 344 references. I doubt there may be a 'liberation report', as the two survivors were severely wounded, and thus unlikely to have been free for a while before capture.

    You may also like to have a copy of the "loss card" for that Lancaster, if you don't have it already. You need to contact the Departement of Research and Information Service at the R.A.F. Museum, Hendon, easy to find through a google search.

    Joss

  5. #15
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    Paul,

    The 'Phot. TWN' references at the end of each NZ crew bio that I gave you relate to small head and shoulders type photos that appeared in the illustrated section of the NZ publication 'The Weekly News'. The RNZAF Museum holds copies of the relevant issues and can supply prints/scans on request for a small fee. Email:
    MATTHEW.O'SULLIVAN@nzdf.mil.nz
    for further information

    There is also a photo of Lander in TWN (issue of 7 Jun 44)

    Errol

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    Default Reply to Joss and Errol

    Thanks Joss, I did misunderstand about the 2nd tour but I can see now from the postings that Errol provided. Thanks. I am struggling to get used to using this site at the moment as a 1st time user but its getting easier. Also I need to understand some of the terminology a bit better but this is getting easier. I will check out the ORB's as suggested just in case their is anything. I will contact the RAF Museum at Hendon for a copy of the "Loss card", I was going to ask to look through their archives if possible so I will do both at the same time, thanks again.

    Errol, I was going to get round to asking about the "Phot.TWN" references. Thanks for that I will email him and ask about the fee. I enquired about the service records for the NZ crew members but a fee was payable after the 1st one from the NZDF archives which mean a bankers draft would need to be posted to them. I dont need to do this now with the info you provided other than for a more detailed history of A.E.Lander so thanks again.

    I apologise for any delay in responding to the help given but I have to fit it in during my work and as you all know this type of research seems to takeover all of the spare time available.

    When I enquired to the NZDF Archives said they would provide service records of deceased serviceman but I wondered about the other RAF personnel. Would the RAF Air Records Agency release documents to persons other than relatives? Does anyone know how I could obtain service records for W.G.Clapp, A.O.Johnston, or E.G.Johnson? I also have to consider here whether I am asking for information which I should not be morally entitled too, any comments anyone?

    Thanks again,

    Paul

  7. #17
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    Default LM463 SR K Shooting down time

    Quote Originally Posted by Theo Boiten View Post
    Hello Paul,

    During your research, have you found out the exact time of the cash of this 101 Sqn Lancaster? I am asking this, as this info would help to narrow down the (probable) German night fighter claimant for the Lancaster.

    Cheers, Theo
    Hi Theo, sorry for the delay in replying. The only time reference I can find is by Lander in the Middlebrook book where he mentions about it being 01.00 when he was on the ground. Sean feast's book mentions a time after the shooting down as 00.55 and the previous 101 Lancaster going down at 00:15 so it must have been between these times but I suppose its not accurate enough for you to find anything else out for me.

    thanks Paul

  8. #18
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    Default Photos of the RNZAF crew

    Quote Originally Posted by Errol Martyn View Post
    Paul,

    The 'Phot. TWN' references at the end of each NZ crew bio that I gave you relate to small head and shoulders type photos that appeared in the illustrated section of the NZ publication 'The Weekly News'. The RNZAF Museum holds copies of the relevant issues and can supply prints/scans on request for a small fee. Email:
    MATTHEW.O'SULLIVAN@nzdf.mil.nz
    for further information

    There is also a photo of Lander in TWN (issue of 7 Jun 44)

    Errol
    Thanks Errol, just to let you know I now have a head and shoulders photo for the 4 RNZAF aircrew form your contact. Thanks Paul

  9. #19
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    Default POW reports

    Quote Originally Posted by jossleclercq View Post
    hello,

    The PoW questionnaires are to be found in the WO344 series in TNA, Kew. But usually, they don't give details about the circumstances of the loss of the plane. But these questionnaires will give you some details, first names, service number, date of birth, wartime address. So this may be a good clue to start trying to locate them or their next-of-kin.

    When I'm home, I'll give you the full references, unless someone else does it before.

    Another source would be the K report. There's a list of them in a section of this board (click on RAFcommands.com at the bottom of the page. Check with the serial number of the bomber.

    At last, there's a very remote possibility that one of them filed a 'liberation' report, if he was free for a while, before being captured. This would be in the WO208 series in Kew. Alas, not all the liberation reports are indexed.

    Hope this helps

    Joss
    Hi Joss, Just to let you know I retrieved both POW reports that also included wartime addresses. I am now writing to those addresses in the hope of further information.

    Thanks again, Paul

  10. #20
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    Default Alfred James Clayton:

    Hi All,
    My father was Albert Edward Lander, pilot of LM463 on 30/31 March 1944. If I can help at all please do not hesitate to contact me.
    Thanks

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