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Thread: Lancaster ME631, 207 Sqn 26-7 April, 1944

  1. #11
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    Hi Dave,

    For the record, here is Chorley:-

    26-27 Apr 1944 Op:Schweinfurt
    207 Sqn
    Lancaster I ME631 EM-K

    T/o 2111 Spilsby. Following a sustained attack from a night-fighter, at least six of the crew jumped from around 14,000 feet, leaving their aircraft to crash in the Black Forest SE of the village of Reichental, 6 km SE of Gernsbach. F/S Watts RAAF lies in Durnbach War Cemetery.

    S/L A N Jones pow
    Sgt R H T Exley pow
    F/O J A Carmichael RCAF pow
    F/O A A Seibel RCAF pow
    W/O L L Inganni pow
    F/O R O Watts RAAF +
    F/S W A Griffin RAAF pow

    See:
    Royal Air Force Bomber Command Losses of the Second World War. Vol.5, 1944
    Chorley,W.R.
    Earl Shilton:Midland Counties Pubs.,1997
    p.195

    Regards,
    Col.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by COL BRUGGY View Post
    Hi Dave,

    For the record, here is Chorley:-

    26-27 Apr 1944 Op:Schweinfurt
    207 Sqn
    Lancaster I ME631 EM-K

    T/o 2111 Spilsby. Following a sustained attack from a night-fighter, at least six of the crew jumped from around 14,000 feet, leaving their aircraft to crash in the Black Forest SE of the village of Reichental, 6 km SE of Gernsbach. F/S Watts RAAF lies in Durnbach War Cemetery.

    S/L A N Jones pow
    Sgt R H T Exley pow
    F/O J A Carmichael RCAF pow
    F/O A A Seibel RCAF pow
    W/O L L Inganni pow
    F/O R O Watts RAAF +
    F/S W A Griffin RAAF pow

    See:
    Royal Air Force Bomber Command Losses of the Second World War. Vol.5, 1944
    Chorley,W.R.
    Earl Shilton:Midland Counties Pubs.,1997
    p.195

    Regards,
    Col.
    Col and Henk,

    Thank you kindly, gents

    Dave

  3. #13
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    Hi,

    Just to add to the debate on F/S Watts. In Footprints on the Sands of Time by Clutton-Brock his name appears on the POW list with the comment "Shot dead by captors 27/4/44"

    In the introduction to the list it states the data (for compling the list) has come from three main sources:-
    RAF Bomber Command Loss Cards
    PRO file AIR 20/2336
    PRO files in the AIR 27 series

    Regards
    Linzee

  4. #14
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    Default Lancaster ME631, 207 Sqn 26-7 April, 1944

    Hi Linzee,

    Thanks a lot for this.

    I know allegations of war crimes against British and Commonwealth airmen were handled by the RAF's Special Investigation Branch as witnessed by the 22 year search to locate and punish those responsible for the murder of the 50 after the Great Escape.

    Sadly, all my attempts to locate SIB files in the UK have been met with that "deer in the headlights at 3 am" look.

    If, as I suspect, Watts was shot by his captors there should be a file on a subsequent investigation.

    Thanks again.

    Dave

  5. #15
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    Dave,
    Interesting point you make about the fact that "They" won't tell, or release, SIB files because we both know there were such and - indeed - may still be such files locked, presumably, in the same box as the files for HMT Lancastria.
    It would, probably, have been easier to access such files in the immediate aftermath of WW2 when the Germans were still 'The Baddies'. But now in the interests - I suspect - of European harmony you've more chance of clearing a herd of pigs for a stream take-off.
    Ditto with the Canadian Govt. I can't even get them to reply to my questions about Plt Off Heggveit and Spitfire AB131. I suspect that their attitude is that if they ignore it for long enough they hope it will go away.
    Obfuscation on the part of national Govts is an art form - been there in the past, helped in it - but, eventually, the truth (or the nearest approximation thereto) will out. I may not be around to see it. But some of you may be. Keep at it!
    HTH
    Peter Davies
    Meteorology is a science; good meteorology is an art!
    We might not know - but we might know who does!

  6. #16
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    Hi Dave (All),

    Well, if someone can attend to the PRO (NA ?), files, I will get Watts' A705 & A9301 digitised.
    His A9301 has not been examined, and may take a little longer to release than the A705.

    Regards,
    Col.

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    Default Lancaster ME631, 207 Sqn 26-7 April, 1944

    Quote Originally Posted by COL BRUGGY View Post
    Hi Dave (All),

    Well, if someone can attend to the PRO (NA ?), files, I will get Watts' A705 & A9301 digitised.
    His A9301 has not been examined, and may take a little longer to release than the A705.

    Regards,
    Col.
    Many thanks, Col but I do believe that the daughter of F/Sgt Griffin and the niece of F/O Seibel have already requested the digitization. I know Seibel's niece arranged for Griffin's file to be digitized which led to the two ladies pooling their resources. I will check with both of them later and advise them of your kind offer if they have not already asked the NAA.

    Peter, I have PMed you.

    Thanks to all who have added to this thread. It is greatly appreciated.

    Dave

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    Good evening chaps,

    A small contribution, here's the claim for ME631

    Uffz. Bernhard Kratz: 3 3./NJG6 Lancaster near Reichental, S.W. Stuttgart: 5.200 m. 01.34 207 Sqn Lancaster ME631

    Cheers, Theo

  9. #19
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    Hello Dave,

    Right you are. I'll hold off, and await developments.

    As I said earlier, "Fascinating".

    Col.

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    Default Re S/L A.N Jones

    Hi There,

    Sorry, I appear to be a little late with this but I have only now been informed of this site and the thread relating to this downed Lancaster.

    Albert Norman (Norm) Jones is my late father and was the commander on this ill fated flight. I am certainly no war historian as I was a very late child in dad's life having been born in 1972, but he did speak in his later years of this event and I am able to recall quite vividly his recollections of that night over the Black Forest. I am in possesion of all of his log books, including is prisioner of war log provided by the Red Cross.

    He did not spend any time in hospital following the loss of his aircraft, infact he parachuted and landed in a tree and after extricating himself, spend several days on the run before being captured. He spent the remainder of the war in Stalug Luft III, Silesia.

    Dad spoke of of F/O Watts to me on several occasions and I would be happy to share this with you but perhaps not in such a public forum as I am not sure whether doing so would be appropriate for any of his living family without their consent. I can clearly state from Dad's discussions with me and from his prisioner of war log that Watts was definately not killed by the Germans as has been suggested.

    If I dig out the logs and memoirs, I believe I can locate the detail on the remainder of the crew and some more detail on what happenned to them.

    Dad did indeed ride horseback to NZ as has been suggested, then settled here in NZ, having two children late in life (he has one in UK somewhere too). He spent some time living in Queensland, Australia before coming to NZ. He spoke little of his war experience but I certainly clearly remember having a clear representation of just how horrid the whole experience was. He was a great New Zealander (born here) who never took no for an answer and was determind to fly and fight with the Allied forces. He took several attemps to get accepted into the RAF because of age and fitness follwing a long and harrowing boat ride from NZ but he made it in the end. I have his medals, including AFC displayed in our home.

    Feel free to contact me if I can be of more help to anyone.

    Regards to all
    Clive

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