Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 11

Thread: 13.10.1944 crash Mustang AG640 430sq pilot Charlenne

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    26
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default 13.10.1944 crash Mustang AG640 430sq pilot Charlenne

    Hello to you all,

    Am I new here ?
    ----------------
    No, "HansO" was my former Nick. Lost my log-in details..

    Some background info:
    ----------------------
    I'm researching (big word..) RAF crashes in the SE part of the Netherlands, especially in the east-Brabant province since a few years now. In "my" area (about 15 square miles), about 60 crashes/crashlandings (allied and German) took place. Amazing.

    Problem:
    --------
    on 13.10.1944 a Mustang I (one) seemed to have crashed in the Vierlingsbeek area.
    Vierlingsbeek is a small village some 15-20 miles S of Nijmegen city, NL.
    It's other details are mentioned in the title, above.

    Source:
    -------
    SGLO Verliesregister 1939-1945 ("Register of Losses of military aircraft in the Netherlands during WW2").

    **

    Results so far:
    --------------
    No details left in local municipality archives and not a single local who could recall a crash as such on this particular day.

    Questions:
    ----------
    -Did the squadron (430) take part in "Operation Aintree" (Overloon/Venray area) ?
    -WAS it an RAF Mustang ?
    -What was the cause of the crash ?

    Thank you very much for all your help.

    Kindest regards,
    Hans

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Canada, eh
    Posts
    1,217
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Goede dag Hans;

    I can confirm that Mustang I AG640 of 430 Squadron, RCAF was lost on this date, and came down near Vierlingsbeek. Sorry, no further details.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    26
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Hello Bill, good to hear from you again !
    Hope everything's okay with you and yours ?

    Bill, may I ask you if this info came from a losscard? Did the pilot survive ?

    All the best.
    Warm regards,
    Hans

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Zelhem, Netherlands.
    Posts
    6,313
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Hans,
    This info is also in my files, however missing rank, initials and nationality of the pilot, named CHARLENNE. It's said that he was hit in the Venlo area.
    Groeten,
    Henk.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    478
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default AG640 430 (RCAF) Sqn

    Gentlemen, gentlemen we are getting a bit carried away here with what seems to be poor quality information.

    AG640/C of 430Sqn was flown on three sorties on 13/10/44. On the last sortie the pilot was F/O E J Geddes J24152. The mission encountered intense light flak in the area E7222-7428-8127-unreadable (there is a website http://www.echodelta.net/mbs/eng-welcome.php where you can convert wartime map references but I can't get it to open at the moment). There is no record in the ORB of the a/c crashlanding or any injury to or loss of the pilot. Form 78 records that AG640 was declared Cat AC on 14/10/44 and then it was "presumed SOC" on 21/10/47. So it would seem that it was either scrapped rather than repaired or repaired and then scrapped. Mustang Is were essentially obsolete by the end of 1944 and 430Sqn was the only frontline unit still flying the type.

    There is no record in the ORB in October 1944 of a pilot named Charlenne; there is a Charman but the ORB does not record him as the pilot of AG640 on 13/10/44.

    I can find no reference that confirms 430Sqn was involved in Operation Aintree but if you can convert the grid references that might give some partial confirmation.

    It is very cold here in Bristol

    Steve

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    26
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Steve, few additional questions if you allow me:

    -where was 430sq. based then?
    -did the a/c sustain hits by this light flak ?
    -is the 430 ORB complete as far as you can see ?
    -what does the term "AC" as stated on Form.78, stand for ?

    Will try the site you mentioned, regarding the references.

    Thanks very much Steve.
    Kind regards,
    Hans

    p.s.: not warm here neither :-(

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    478
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default AG640 430 (RCAF) Sqn

    Hi Hans

    -where was 430sq. based then?
    B.78/Eindhoven

    -did the a/c sustain hits by this light flak?
    to be precise it is not clear but the ORB records "intense light flak" and the next day the a/c is recorded as "Cat AC"

    -is the 430 ORB complete as far as you can see?
    yes I believe so but in the end there is no way to check.

    -what does the term "AC" as stated on Form.78, stand for?

    Cat A Aircraft can be repaired on site
    Cat AC Repair is beyond the unit capacity, i.e. may be repaired on site by another unit or contractor
    Cat B Beyond repair on site, i.e. repairable at a Maintenance Unit or at a contractor's works
    Cat E Aircraft is a write-off

    I hope this helps
    Steve

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    478
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default AG640 430 (RCAF) Sqn

    Hans

    Today I have been able to access the site http://www.echodelta.net/mbs/eng-welcome.php It seems that the reconnaissance flown by Geddes and F/L W M Middleton was on a West to East line** to the North of Deurne. qE7222 seems to be Ysselsteyn; qE7428 Merselo and qE8127 Venlo.

    Steve

    ** I was looking at locations using the computer when I wrote this I can now see looking at a proper map that these locations are not in a line West to East but more SW to NE.
    Last edited by SteveBrooking; 3rd February 2009 at 13:46.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    26
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Good day Steve,

    Sorry for replying so rediculously late.....
    Thanks so much for your very fruitfull adds !

    I tried to retrieve the locations according to the map references but it did not work at all.
    I'll have another go. The A/C should have crashed "in/near" (?) Overloon (exact location is not known to me). Merselo is very close, Ysselsteyn a bit, Venlo more distance away.

    So according to your info Steve, I can be fairly certain that the pilot could not have been Charlenne ? Just hypothetically: would it be possible that 2 pilots changed their planes ?
    Guess the pilot must have been found and carried id. discs... ?

    Thanks again for you help.

    Regards from a warm, clear blue but windy SE NL.
    Hans

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    478
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Hi Hans

    I am not sure I can make my information fit with your information and sorry to say I have very little to add.

    I think you need to ask "SGLO Verliesregister 1939-1945" what was the source of their information that "on 13.10.1944 a Mustang I AG640 seemed to have crashed in the Vierlingsbeek area". From the responses to this thread it seems that similar info comes from Canada (Bill Walker) but I do not know where his info or the SGLO info comes from unless everybody is copying each other - the info is NOT in the squadron diary and SGLO report does not fit with the info on the aircraft record card for AG640. There is no pilot named Charlenne in the 430Sqn ORB at any time from Jan43 to Jan45. There is no entry for "Charlenne" on the CWGC database.

    The 430Sqn ORB records that most of the recce missions flown on 13/10/44 were in the "Venlo-Venray" area which suggests that the patrols were N>S or S>N along the line of road which is now the A73. The report on the mission flown at 1420 states that intense light flak was encountered from four locations including qE7222 Ysselsteyn; qE7428 Merselo and qE8127 Venlo the grid reference for the fourth location is not readable. Clearly Vierlingsbeek is not too far away from Merselo. The 430 Sqn ORB does not record the loss of any other pilot or aircraft on that day. Yes it is always possible for pilots or aircraft to be changed at the last minute usually when an aircraft goes u/s the pilot might change aircraft or there might be another pilot waiting with his engine running as the "spare".

    No Mustang loss is recorded for 13/10/44 in the book 2TAF Vol 2 by Shores and Thomas. I know that, to produce their tables, Chris Thomas used the "daily claims and loss returns" that were sent up through the chain of command from each squadron to 2TAF HQ so it seems from that source that 430Sqn did not report the loss of any aircraft on that day.

    It seems like for the first time for a long while we have very little wind here in Bristol and today it is very sunny and warm and all the roads are blocked with traffic heading for the coast!

    Steve

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •