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Thread: Typhoon query

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    Default Typhoon query

    Hi,

    I'm trying to trace/confirm a Typhoon loss for 29th May 1944.

    The Typhoon File has MN312 (263 Sqn) as missing of Cape Frehel on this date. I can't find any details of this in Fighter Command Losses Vol 3 by Franks.

    The ORB entry for this date has the squadron as being released 1600-0800hrs for Squadron party. Two Roadsteads were carried out on 30th but ne mention of any casualties. F/Sgt Pringle was lost on 28th when he crashed into the top of Yelverton Church in EK211.

    The only other loss I have for May 1944 is MN545, which according to FCL Vol 3 was shot down by flak off Cape Frehel in 21st. In Typhoon file the entry for MN545 simply states Probably Struck off Charge 21/06/47.

    Could it be that the date for MN312 is a typo and should read 21st instead of 29th and the entry in the Typhoon File for MN545 is correct?

    Any help would be appreciated.

    Alex

  2. #2
    Doug Cuthbertson Guest

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    Hi Alex,
    The only Typhoon I can trace on the 29th May is JR534, of 175 Sqn, which crashed on landing at Holmsley South.
    The next four were lost on 21st May;
    JR433, 137 Sqn. Shot down by fighters 10 km SW of Bruges.
    MN252, 184 Sqn. Missing off Walcheren Island.
    MN312, 137 Sqn. Crashed into the sea off Ostend, after being hit by flak.
    MN545, 263 Sqn. Hit by flak and crashed 10 km off Cap Frehel.

    Doug.

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    Default Typhoon loss 29 May 1944

    Apologies for the confusion caused by the 'The Typhoon File' - but it was published in 1981 and the information has been superceded by that in 'Typhoon and Tempest Story' (1988), later Air-Britain serial registers and Norman's FCLosses (for which I supplied my updated Typhoon records). The basic histories in Typhoon File were collated by Jim Halley and myself; I did squadrons numbered below 200 and Jim did those above 200 so I am not sure where the 263/29.5.44 info came from. MN312 was indeed a 137 Sqn aircraft, and was lost on 21 May 44, Flt Lt Hawker killed in action. No known link with 263.

    Our main sources were the Forms 78 (movement cards), the accident record cards and the ORBs. This left many gaps - MN545 is an example - the F.78 said 263 Sqn 26 April 44, then 'PSOC 21.6.47'. This latter date we knew was a paper write-off date used to close records where the real fate was obscure on the F.78. In many cases the missing fate could be resolved by the ORB but, as you will probably know, 263 does not record serials for most of its Typhoon period.

    For 'T&T Story' MoD casualty records were accessed through AHB5 to establish the identities unavailable in the ORBs; as a result I believe the serial information on losses in that publication is substantially correct. However, research does not stand still and no one published source can claim to be infallible.

    Doug, it would be helpful (in unravelling these mysteries) if you quoted the source of your information.

    Chris Thomas

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    Hi Chris,

    Thanks for clearing up the mystery for me, much appreciated. I am currently matching up losses to 263 Sqn pilots/aircraft.

    One other Typhoon had me stumped but your explanation kind of clears that one up. Again in Typhoon File MN527 was with 198 Sqn and was lost on 25th May 1944. Franks FCL Vol 3 has this as a 263 Sqn machine and lost on 3rd July 1944, although F/L Stark was able to evade and return to base. I would asume that new info came to light regarding the fate of this machine.

    Regards,

    Alex

  5. #5
    Doug Cuthbertson Guest

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    To Chris Thomas,
    How remiss of me. The source was Air Britain RAF Serials "J" & "M" series.
    Doug.

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    Thanks Doug. That figures as those registers were post 'T&T Story).

    MN527 is an excellent example of the serial pitfalls - the F.78 (and hence Typhoon File) says 198 Sqn FBE 24 May 44, 198's ORB says it was JP503/F; the Wing ORB says JR527!
    AHB later confirmed it was JR527. So the movement card clerk had entered its fate on the wrong card and the sqn diarist had entered the serial of the subsequent 'F' instead of the one that was actually lost ...
    CT

  7. #7
    Doug Cuthbertson Guest

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    Yes, all noted Chris. I have found many similar errors over the last 20 years of researching. It's down to those WAAFs thinking about the next NAAFI dance, or the last one. They were lovely with it, though, and very good for moral.
    Doug.

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    Default "Pinkie" Stark's Typhoon

    hello,

    If I understood well the different posts, F/L STARK was flying MN527 when he came down in Britanny ?

    By the way, Chris, have you ever heard anything about STARK's Typhoon being dug-out and the Sabre engine on display somewhere ? This is not my research area but I've a keen interest in this pilot re 609 Sqn. I was promised informations from local people but they never gave it, so I'm not sure at all about these details.

    TIA

    Joss

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    Yes Joss, Pinkie was flying Typhoon MN527 HE-X when he was shot down on 3 July 44. Have you tried Claude Helias for info?

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    hello Chris,

    Not him directly (perhaps my Britanny contacts did it). A couple of years ago a small group of 609 Squadron association was considering to go in the area where he came down during a trip to Normandy. It the story about the dig and the engine being in a private collection somewhere was true, they would have liked to see it. Being the Frenchman of the associated members, they sought my help in this case but I couldn't definitely confirm the story about the dig.

    Thanks for your answer

    Joss
    Last edited by jossleclercq; 4th January 2008 at 13:05. Reason: typo

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