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Thread: UK / Germany Time Difference, March '42

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    Default UK / Germany Time Difference, March '42

    Hi guys

    Sorry that this is, I'm sure, going over ground that's been explained before, but Dave C (aka 'Alieneyes') off this forum has kindly provided me with an extract from an RCAF casualty file which includes a note 'extracted from German documents' saying that the a/c in question crashed at "00.30" on 29 March 1942 (Lubeck raid).

    Given that was the report from the German side, would that mean that on that date the a/c came down at 23.30 UK time?

    Sorry that this is repeating previous queries, but I'm still a bit unsure about the comparison of times between the UK and on the continent. I always get a bit lost with GMT, BST and European times. The ol' brain is a bit small for these complexities! :-)

    Thanks for the assistance / pointers.

    Ian


    ps Dave - I'll drop you an e-mail also, but would just like to acknowledge and say thank you while I'm on here too.

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    Here's the classic post on comparative times. From what I can see, you are correct in thinking that the crash in question was at 23.30 UK time.




    "This article was published in Bulletin Airwar 1939-1945 Nr. 99 page 26/27.

    Time calculation 1940-1945. By Rob de Bruin/Great Bookham, England.

    I have checked two sources; first my own Whitaker Almanac and I have contacted the Royal Observatory at Greenwich.
    The situation is as follows:
    1) In Great Britain (from now on called England) there is since 1916 summertime. In the winter they have GMT and in
    the summer GMT+1.
    2) Middle European Time (MET), that was the time in the Netherlands during the German occupation, was equal to GMT+1
    and during the summer Middle European Time is equal to GMT+2.
    3) The English introduced at February 25th, 1940 their summertime GMT+1. In the Netherlands we had Dutch Time.
    This means that from February 25th, 1940 it was 40 min. later in England than in Holland. From may 16th, 1940 the
    Germans introduced MET and the Dutch were one hour ahead of the English.
    4) In England it was summertime during the war from February 25th, 1940 till October 7th, 1945.
    5) To get more daylight went over to Double British Summertime(DBST). This was during:
    a. 1941 May 4th till August 10th.
    b. 1942 April 5th till August 9th
    c. 1943 April 4th till August 15th
    d. 1944 April 2nd till September 17th
    e. 1945 April 2nd till July 15th
    6) During these periods the time in England was GMT+2 and that’s the same as
    MET(Summertime)
    7) To make thing more clear some examples:
    Date Time in Holland/Germany Time in England.
    30-05-1940 12.28 11.28
    22-06-1941 06.05 06.05
    03-11-1942 14.18 14.18
    01-04-1943 23.25 22.25
    01-05-1943 20.08 20.08
    06-06-1944 05.30 05.30
    05-05-1945 08.00 09.00
    8) The change of time was done in the early Sunday morning hours at 2.00 O’clock.
    9) Here a list of dates were the German time was equal to British time.
    a. 1941 May 4th till August 10th.
    b. 1942 April 5th till August 9th and November 2nd till December 31.
    c. 1943 January 1st till March 29th and April 4th till August 15th and from
    October 4th till December 31st.
    d. 1944 January 1st till April 2nd and April 4th till September 17th and October 2nd
    till December 31st.
    e. 1945 January 1st till April 2nd.


    This is an translation of the essence of an article published in Bulletin Airwar 1939-1945 Nr.99. With many thanks
    to Mr. Robert de Bruin, Great Bookham, England.
    The translation has been made by Jaap Woortman."

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    Ian,

    In March 1942 both Britain and Germany were on the same time, GMT+1.

    Ragnar

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    Thanks Ragnar - can you specify what changes need to be made to the other post?

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    Default Times Zones

    When I was in "Gainfull Employ" in HMQ's Services the RAF (and Met Office) always used GMT. The Army always used Local Time (wherever they were). You can see the problem if "where they were" crossed two Times Zones! The UK Navy (as is usual) were ambivalent. A Navy, or Army, signal (without the Time Zone being explicitly defined) was always treated with some considerable reserve!!!!!!!!!!!
    Was unofficial MAO on a Shack, on a MEDEX, in the mid 50's. Went fossicking about Greek/Turkish islands (before they became hot political potatoes). Found submarine on surface. "Action Stations". Drove in, at low-level, and released Smoke Marker Bomb. Direct hit on casing of sub just forrard of conning tower. Must have sounded, in the sub, like Big Ben striking the hour. Cheers in the Shack until the sub hoisted a yellow pennant. This indicated it was "One Of Ours"!! An Exercise "Blue-on-Blue" due to Time Zone differences!!!
    Just One in a series of a Thousand on the same subject!!
    Peter Davies
    Last edited by Resmoroh; 26th April 2009 at 13:33.
    Meteorology is a science; good meteorology is an art!
    We might not know - but we might know who does!

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    I can't really be bothered with that now, but PRO Readers' Guide No.8 "RAF Records in the PRO" contains a list of British and German times used in WW.II, which I'll mail you in a private message (the board doesn't support attachments).

    It should be noted, however, that that takoff and landing times of aircraft based in the U.K. can vary from local time to GMT, so it is sometmes difficult to distinguish which were enetered in the records. I understand that times were generally recorded in local time (British Summer Time or British Double Summer Time), but when taken from navigators' logs they usually are in GMT.

    Ragnar

    Thanks Ragnar - can you specify what changes need to be made to the other post?[/QUOTE]

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    Default UK / Germany Time Differences, March '42

    Hi chaps, thanks for those replies (including Ant, for the private mail). I'll need to re-read them a few times to make sure I've got it clear.

    But Ragnar, if what you say is correct that doesn't seem to help me ( :-) )! Theo Boiten's NJWD (P.79) lists a "Hampden" claim by Uffz Karl Merk, NJG2, NW of Langeoog at 23.10 (Central European Time - P.6 of NJWD), which he then adds was in fact "probably 419 Sqn Wellington X3477" (= P/O K E Hobson RCAF and crew). HOWEVER, Hobson's RCAF file which Dave C ('Alieneyes') looked up for me contains a sheet headed "Extract from German Documents", specifically giving the "Date and time of [Hobson's] crash" as being "29.3.42 at 00.30 hrs".

    If this latter report was giving the 'local' time (ie CET), and if Britain and Germany were both on the same time (BST and CET, with both being equal to GMT+1), then Merk's claim (23.10) seems to be about an hour too early for Hobson's crash (00.30).

    IF Hobson's crash time needed to be adjusted back by an hour then possibly an aircraft claimed by Merk at 23.10 could have come down 20 minutes later, at (00.30 minus 1 hr), 23.30 ... but that seems not to be the case.

    So maybe Merk's claim was not Hobson's a/c after all (Sorry Theo!)(?) and I'll have to look again at my other options.

    But I think I'll go and let my brain stop hurting for a bit first.
    :-)

    Hmmmm!

    Ian

    ps Ragnar, I tried looking for the Readers' Guide which you refer to but couldn't find it on the Nat Archives site (have they rearranged things?). Could you maybe please send me a copy by P/M? Thanks.

    ... Thanks also for the comment on records usually using 'local' times (ie BST or DBST) which is what I'd expect: you'd record times as they 'actually were', locally to you at that moment ... but it seems strange if navigators would then use an 'artificial' time (GMT) which could be 2 hours behind.

    Ouch ... my brain's hurting again! :-)

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    Thanks for the PM Ragnar, will do.

    Cheers,

    Mark


    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar J. Ragnarsson View Post
    I can't really be bothered with that now, but PRO Readers' Guide No.8 "RAF Records in the PRO" contains a list of British and German times used in WW.II, which I'll mail you in a private message (the board doesn't support attachments).

    It should be noted, however, that that takoff and landing times of aircraft based in the U.K. can vary from local time to GMT, so it is sometmes difficult to distinguish which were enetered in the records. I understand that times were generally recorded in local time (British Summer Time or British Double Summer Time), but when taken from navigators' logs they usually are in GMT.

    Ragnar

    Thanks Ragnar - can you specify what changes need to be made to the other post?
    [/QUOTE]

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    Default Other occupied countries / Germany / UK time differences

    Hello,

    Which countries were included in the Middle European Time during WW II or, to ask my question in an other way, was the time in occupied countries of West of Europe (France, Belgium ...) and North of Europe (Denmark, Norway ...), the same as in Germany during the same periods ?

    Thanks

    Pierre

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    G'day Pierre'
    Will send you a PM on subject.
    Regards,
    Henk.

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