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Thread: Identity of RAF/RCAF Aircrew of 460 Sqdn (RAAF)?

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    Default Identity of RAF/RCAF Aircrew of 460 Sqdn (RAAF)?

    During research into a relative who flew (and died) as a Navigator with 460 Sqdn (RAAF), I have come across some RAF (and one RCAF) aircrew who flew with my relative on whom I would like some further information.

    I have checked the Squadron ORBs, but they did not list service numbers for non-RAAF personnel. Mustering is by my deduction so may be wrong. Similarly, initials are taken in most cases from the ORB and are inconsistently recorded (same with service numbers for RAAF pers!).

    In most cases, I'm simply seeking service numbers, christian names, confirmation of mustering, home locality/town (if known), date of birth (or age), and whether they survived the war. I've already checked the War Graves Commission site and found some detail on one of the individuals as well as some limited information from other sources.

    The following (non-RAAF) aircrew who flew with 460 Sqdn (RAAF) during the second half of 1943 are the ones in question:

    Sgt A. or H. Gorrel RAF Wireless Operator - also known as "Bert". Surname spelt with one 'L' or two? Survived the war.

    1439077 Sgt R.S. Or R.W. Scarr RAF Flight Engineer (Ron?)

    Sgt J.F. O'Shaughnessy RAF Rear Gunner

    P/O C.E. Hanson RCAF Wireless Operator

    RAF573805 Sgt J. McKenzie RAF Flight Engineer (John) 21 years DoD 16Dec43 (with relative), home locality?

    Thanks

    Adrian
    Last edited by AdrianR8; 14th May 2009 at 07:19. Reason: Found Scarr's service number
    Interests include Spitfires in Malta 1942 and 460 Sqdn 1943-44 (including Black Thursday)

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    Hello Adrian,

    I have a P/O Harold Alvin Gorrell who was Canadian, Air Bomber in 460 squadron with the crew of P/O Bob Ladbury, they began their ops in April 1944.

    Is it your man ?

    Alain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alain charpentier View Post
    I have a P/O Harold Alvin Gorrell who was Canadian, Air Bomber in 460 squadron with the crew of P/O Bob Ladbury, they began their ops in April 1944.

    Is it your man ?
    I don't think so Alain. Mine is an RAF Sergeant Gorrell (wireless operator) who was flying as early as May 1943.
    Interests include Spitfires in Malta 1942 and 460 Sqdn 1943-44 (including Black Thursday)

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    Hi Adrian,

    i can't positively identify any i'm afraid, but i thought i would throw these in as possibilities from England and Wales BMD's:
    Albert Gorrell born 3rd quarter of 1914 in West Derby. (There is also an Albert F Gorrell born in Islington in 1922). Note the spelling with double L.

    Joseph F O'Shaughnessy born 1st quarter of 1914 in Kensington. Only J F O'Shaughnessy but then your J F O'Shaughnessy may have been born in Ireland?

    Ralph S Scarr born 3rd quarter of 1911 in Auckland County Durham. Only R S Scarr.
    Robert W Scarr born 2nd quarter of 1922 in Kettering. Only R W Scarr although there is Ronald W C Scarr born same time period in Chesterton.

    Cheers, Tom

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    Hello Adrian,

    Here is John Watson's interpretation of the 460 Sqn ORB, on Peter Dunn's site. http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/460sqdn.htm

    GORRELL,H.A. (W.Op.) - 33 ops.

    Pilots.
    D12 - Douglas,F.C. (3 ops)
    G11 - Goulevitch,J. (23 ops)
    L01 - Ladbury,R.G. (4 ops)
    M14 - McLeery,J. (1 op)
    M36 - Moore,O.M. (1 op)

    SCARR,R.W. (Bomb Aimer) - 15 ops

    Pilots.
    D12 - Douglas,T.C. (3 ops)
    G11 - Goulevitch,J. (11 ops)

    O'SHAUGHNESSY,R.M. 1558498 ACH/GD.

    Watson does not mention an O'Shaughnessy as aircrew, at all.

    HANSON,C.E. (Bomb Aimer) - 24 ops

    Pilots.
    R02 - Randall,F.A. (1 op)
    S19 - Stafford,M. (23 ops)

    McKENZIE,J. (Bomb Aimer) - 2 ops. KIA 16/12/43

    Pilot.
    R02 - Randall,F.A. (2 ops) - KIA 16/12/43

    You will notice that Gorrell and Scarr's ops don't match up with the pilot totals.

    Make of it, what you will,
    Col.
    Last edited by COL BRUGGY; 14th May 2009 at 10:42. Reason: minor correction

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    Thanks Col,

    John Watson's list is useful, but it's not 100% accurate. My relative in question (Halstead) is listed as flying on 24 sorties. Close perusal of the 460 Sqdn ORB reveals only 22 sorties before his death.

    For Scarr, he flew 8 times with Halstead as his Navigator (3 under Douglas and 5 under Goulevitch).

    J.F. O'Shaughnessy flew with Goulevitch as captain (Halstead as Nav) on 23 Sep 43 on operation to Mannheim. He may have flown more often, but not with Halstead.

    Hanson flew only once with Halstead as Nav (Randall DFC as captain) - 20 Nov 43 to Modane, France.

    McKenzie flew 13 times with Halstead as Nav (combination Goulevitch and Randall DFC as captains) from 3Sep43 to 16Dec43.

    Also, Watson's list allocates crew position based on the sequence of the crew written on the Form 541.

    Based on similar information held by the Australian War Memorial, I always believed that Halstead was a Flight Engineer, which I thought was reasonably rare for RAAF personnel. However, after having Halstead's service record digitised at the Australian National Archives, the only training he completed outside of Australia was as a Navigator - he couldn't have been a Flight Engineer.

    I too noted that Waton's operations count for crew didn't tally with Captains.

    Adrian
    Interests include Spitfires in Malta 1942 and 460 Sqdn 1943-44 (including Black Thursday)

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    Default Hanson

    Not a WOP but a Bomb Aimer

    HANSON, F/O Carl Eric (J22850) - Distinguished Flying Cross - No.460 Squadron - Award effective 5 August 1944 as per London Gazette dated 18 August 1944 and AFRO 2101/44 dated 29 September 1944. Born January 1923 at Hay Lakes, Alberta; home there. Enlisted in Edmonton 4 February 1942. To No.15 SFTS, 27 March 1942. To No.2 ITS, 9 May 1942; graduated and promoted LAC, 4 July 1942; to No.19 EFTS, 1 August 1942; ceased training 26 September 1942 and posted to Trenton; to No.7 BGS, 9 October 1942; graduated 4 December 1942 and posted next day to No.7 AOS; graduated and commissioned 22 January 1943. To "Y" Depot, 5 February 1943. To RAF overseas, 4 March 1943. Repatriated, 4 September 1945. Released 11 October 1945. No citation other than "completed...many successful operations against the enemy in which [he has] displayed high skill, fortitude and devotion to duty." Public Records Office Air 2/9632 has recommendation dated 12 May 1944 when he had flown 18 1/3 sorties (130 hours 20 minutes), 3 November 1943 to 12 May 1944.

    * denotes 1/3 sortie

    3 November 1943 - Dusseldorf
    10 November 1943 - Modene
    26 November 1943 - Berlin
    2 December 1943 - Berlin
    3 December 1943 - Leipzig
    16 December 1943 - Berlin; crashed on return
    27 January 1944 - Berlin
    28 January 1944 - Berlin
    30 January 1944 - Berlin
    19 February 1944 - Leipzig
    24 February 1944 - Schweinfurt
    25 February 1944 - Augsburg
    18 March 1944 - Frankfurt
    22 Mar 44 - Frankfurt
    26 April 1944 - Essen
    27 April 1944 - Friedrichshaven
    30 April 1944 - Maintenon*
    1 May 1944 - Lyons
    12 May 1944 - GARDENING

    "Flying Officer Hanson is a Canadian Bomb Aimer now carrying out his first tour of operations. He has completed 18 1/3 sorties against some of the most heavily defended enemy targets. These include six against berlin and also attacks on Leipzig, Augsburg, Frankfurt and Essen.

    "Throughout this officer's tour he has performed his duties with complete coolness and utter disregard of enemy opposition. His cheerful confidence and ability have been a source of comfort to his captain and an inspiration to the other members of his crew.

    "In these days of concentrated attacks he has always maintained an untiring watch for other aircraft and on numerous occasions has managed to advise his pilot and so avoid a collision. His ability as a Bomb Aimer has been proved by his photographic results which have been of the highest order. Flying Officer Hanson's skill has been further demonstrated by his judgement in instructing his captain to avoid dense searchlight concentrations in heavily defended areas.

    "I recommend that Flying Officer Hanson receives the Distinguished Flying Cross in due reward for his strength of operational purpose and sense of duty."

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    Thanks Hugh!

    Like I said, crew position was an act of deduction for some.

    Adrian
    Interests include Spitfires in Malta 1942 and 460 Sqdn 1943-44 (including Black Thursday)

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    Default Raf/rcaf

    HA. Gorrell "Air Bomber" J-88484
    richard

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard.K View Post
    HA. Gorrell "Air Bomber" J-88484
    Richard, do you have any more than that? I suspect that isn't my man. Text in reports and around some photos indicates that he was almost certainly RAF, and therefore wouldn't have had the RCAF prefix of J to his service number. Gorrell also settled in the UK after the war, which is not impossible for a Canadian, but less likely that for a native Britain.

    But like I said, my information is yet to be validated and I know it isn't all 100% accurate.

    Adrian
    Interests include Spitfires in Malta 1942 and 460 Sqdn 1943-44 (including Black Thursday)

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