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Thread: Ventura AE711 - M M Paggi

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    Default Ventura AE711 - M M Paggi

    Hello folks,
    this caught the corner of my eye today while checking some of Henk's men, the surname PAFGI on the CWGC database.
    The entry is:
    Name: PAFGI, OARTINO M.
    Initials: O M
    Nationality: United Kingdom
    Rank: Member
    Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Ferry Command
    Date of Death: 03/05/1942
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 2. Column 1.
    Memorial: OTTAWA MEMORIAL

    Carl A Christie in Ocean Bridge for this date has Ventura AE711 going down in Bradore Bay Que.
    On board were
    Leon Segal US Civ
    P/O James Watson RCAF
    Martino M Paggi Br Civ

    The Edmonton Journal it seems carried a death notice:
    http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~abwcobit/Data/Papers/1942EJ/Deaths1942EJPage39.html
    PAGGI, Martino M. - Beverly Hills, Montreal, Queb. 1942-05-08
    M- 12

    And the Lethbridge Herald carried this story:
    Three Killed In Forced Landing In Quebec
    Montreal, May 7
    Te Royal Air Force Ferry Command today announced that three men had been killed when Lockheed aircraft made a forced landing at Bradore Wharf, Que.

    The three killed made up the entire crew of hte aircraft. They were Leon Segal of Los Angeles, captain of the bomber, PO. James Watson, R.C.A.F, Toronto, navigator, and Martino M. Paggi of Beverly Hills, Cail., radio operator.
    The R.C.A.F. did not say when the crash occured, not did it give any other details.
    ###########

    Using ancestry.com I can find a number of occasion in 1938-1941 when one Martin(o) M Paggi travelled either by ship or air to New York. This man was born in Croyden in 1899, by 1938, his father was living in Glasgow and martino Paggi's wife was resident in California and Mr. Paggi worked as a Sound Engineer in Hollywood. And sure enough, he turns up in books and the internet movie Database as a prewar sound engineer.

    Question is, is the CWGC completely off, a scanning error or something similar. I've put the question to the the DHH in Ottowa, to see if he was actually an employee of RAFTC or maybe a passenger. Note the CWGC only records him as a 'member', where in other cases he would be 'Radio Officer' or similar, Segal is clearly recorded as Captain.

    A 40 year old former Hollywood sound engineer working as a Radio Operator on RAFTC aircraft. If anyone has anthing to add before I hear back from the DHH.

    I just found an M M Paggi in the 1920's who worked as.... a Radio Operator on ships! Date of birth matches. And also find he must have sailed using his second name Maxmillion mainly in the 1920's. Numerous arrivals in California.

    I want to gather as much as I can before contacting the CWGC so I don't get laughed at by them.

    best regards

    Dennis

    Name: SEGAL, LEON
    Initials: L
    Nationality: United Kingdom
    Rank: Captain
    Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Ferry Command
    Date of Death: 03/05/1942
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 2. Column 1.
    Memorial: OTTAWA MEMORIAL
    Last edited by dennis_burke; 12th July 2009 at 12:17. Reason: Completing sentences! found Radio Operator matching
    Dennis Burke
    - Dublin

    Foreign Aircrew and Aircraft Ireland 1939-1945
    www.ww2irishaviation.com

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    Default

    Hi Dennis,

    from my point of view I think it is simply typo (twice in the case).
    I have the similiar experience with Czech names on CWGC site which I was correcting several times in the past.
    Also the name + surname looks he has an Italian ancestors and if you will ask Mr. Google he will let you know that there is a surname PAGGI but not PAFGI.

    Hope this helps a little

    Pavel
    Czechoslovak Airmen in the RAF 1940-1945
    http://cz-raf.webnode.cz

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    Dennis,
    I've him on file as listed in "Ocean Bridge": Radio Op. RAFFC Martino M. PAGGI.
    Do you inform CWGC ? I don't want to get them bored as I still have 6 messages outstanding on inaccuracies in their digital files.
    Regards,
    Henk.

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    Thanks Chaps,
    yes I think its fairly clear its a strange and gross typo but I just want to be sure before I go in guns blazing.

    I'll send CWGC a message this week, perhaps even this evening.

    I've run both 'names' into google and ancestry.com and there is no other example of anyone called Pafgi or Oartino.
    Dennis Burke
    - Dublin

    Foreign Aircrew and Aircraft Ireland 1939-1945
    www.ww2irishaviation.com

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    [QUOTE=dennis_burke;31752] yes I think its fairly clear its a strange and gross typo /QUOTE]

    I wouldn't go quite as far as 'gross'. F and G are adjacent to one another on the keyboard, so a simple keystroke misshit seems to be the cause of the aggravation.

    Also, the PAFGI spelling dates back to the original printed register of 1959. So in this case the later scanning was not at fault.

    Errol

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    Typo perhaps wasn't the word I meant there, not knowing the printed registers contained Pafgi I assumed the error was purely a scanning one, hence my use of gross referred only to how a scannign operation could miss-scan these things.

    If its Pafgi on the paper copies as far back as 1959 then I'll probably not get to far with this.
    I've sent them a message in anycase.
    Dennis Burke
    - Dublin

    Foreign Aircrew and Aircraft Ireland 1939-1945
    www.ww2irishaviation.com

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    I/we seem to have been sucessful?

    I checked today and low and behold!

    he is now listed as

    Name: PAGGI, MARTINO M
    Initials: M M
    Nationality: United Kingdom
    Rank: Member
    Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Ferry Command
    Date of Death: 03/05/1942
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 2. Column 1.
    Memorial: OTTAWA MEMORIAL


    and there is no Pafgi name on the database. I have not heard from CWGC with regard to this but I hope I had some hand in it.
    Dennis Burke
    - Dublin

    Foreign Aircrew and Aircraft Ireland 1939-1945
    www.ww2irishaviation.com

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    Thanks Dennis for mediation.

    Henk.

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    Just to update, Dave Champion got me some extra details about these men.

    Enough to confirm, Leon Segal's wife was Mary K Segal with an address in Canada at the time. The 1940 elecotral register for California, San Diego County shows a Leon and Mary K living at an address. his occupation is listed as USN, which I assume is US Navy.

    I also found them likely to have sailed into New York in 1939, he having been born in new Orleans and she in Oklahoma. Just to remember them a bit better.

    Still no clear indication if Paggi's and Segal's bodies were recovered.
    Dennis Burke
    - Dublin

    Foreign Aircrew and Aircraft Ireland 1939-1945
    www.ww2irishaviation.com

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