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Thread: Copyright and Property Rights

  1. #1
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    Default Copyright and Property Rights

    The Forum will not permit me to post a reply to "The Fly No more" thread. So I am proposing a debate as a new thread.

    Whilst I agree wholeheartedly with Ross’ sentiments on Copyright, etc, I fear that I can only do that in the short-term, tactical, sense, and time-scale. In the longer-term, strategic, time-scale trying to defend Copyright issues will only mean that you, and/or I, and/or we, are simply trying to put off the day when everything that appears on the internet is automatically in The Public Domain – end of story. To think of so called ‘Legal Action’ will only fatten the wallets of M’Learned Friends! The ‘Music Industry’ (not short of a bob or two!) is spending a significant amount of money trying – like King Alfred – to hold back the inevitable tide. When that long-term becomes ‘the now’ is open to debate. Personally, I would give it no more than 5 years. The whole world will be a giant Wikipedia – whether we like it or not! Then we will be able to quote from ‘Lost Bombers’ and/or ‘ASN’ to support (or denigrate) whatever our pet WW2 aviation theory of the time happens to be, and with impunity (unless the Forum decrees that to take that action is against its Rules). What about my (and others’) Human Rights?, and freedom of information?.
    The Intellectual Property Rights of those who ‘create’ something can, with difficulty, be defined. Whether those rights can be defended in a Court of Law may be asking for the indefensible. In 1997 I was able to download the entire text of the Anglo-Saxon epic “Beowulf” for free – from Project Gutenberg (it took hours on a dial-up connection!!!). There was a copy in the Uni bookshop for a few GBP. But if I had bought that book I would not (even with my, then, primitive computer) have been able to carry out the sort of philological exercises on that text that one can do with a computer.
    It is going to happen – and sooner than you think! Whilst I appreciate that some folk have spent a vast amount of time, effort, and money, producing a “magnum opus” they are going to be overtaken by events. I also appreciate that there may be some commercial considerations.
    But, are we to be in the forefront of progress in our aviation orientated discipline? Or are we – like the Luddites (and King Alfred) – to resist change, come hell or high water, simply for psychological reasons?
    Big intellectual problem. Time – possibly – for a big intellectual debate?
    HTH
    Peter Davies
    Meteorology is a science; good meteorology is an art!
    We might not know - but we might know who does!

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    Default

    First Peter,

    No conspiracy, the forum is not preventing anyone pushing the correct sequence of buttons to post on the thread.

    Second:
    You miss the point completely.

    I did not post Volume 1 of Coastal Command Losses on the Internet.

    Therefore it is not a question of "it's on the internet so it's public domain" but "it's been transcribed by a thief and sold/given on without my permission".

    If an individual chooses to place their work on the internet then they do so knowing what rights they wish to retain or relinquish.

    I did not choose to take that step but I see approx 50% of my publication transcribed onto ASN, comma for comma as printed in my book.

    The progress is that Volume 2, 3 and 4 are very unlikely to see print, I will not publish direct on the internet.

    The future is everyone repeats the primary source lookups when they want some facts for their aviation hobby as only a few will do for others and post on the internet.

    Ross
    The Intellectual Property contained in this message has been assigned specifically to this web site.
    Copyright Ross McNeill 2015/2018 - All rights reserved.

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    Default

    No conspiracy, the forum is not preventing anyone pushing the correct sequence of buttons to post on the thread.

    Ross,

    Please, how on earth do we know the correct buttons to push?

    As far as I can see the correct buttons are the ones you believe are correct. Rules seem to be made as we go along. How about posting a list of banned sites, all you have done so far is list Lost Bombers as undesirable and I for one have never used them. I have the complete 9 Vols of BCL and always give credit where due.

    Lets have the complete list.

    All I have done is post an innocent request for help in the hope this forum could help in the request of another who does not have access to this site and its fabulous research facilities or other research tools.

    Seems research is open to just the privileged few.

    As for the none publishing of other volumes of Coastal Command Losses, I think its very sad to deprive others of the fruits of your long hard research.

    Peter.

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    Default

    Ok,

    Peter Clare posted a comment on the To Fly No More thread that

    "As it seems replies to this thread have been banned I have no option but to delete it."

    This was not the case. I assume that Peter Clare had found that he had come up against the automatic time limit for editing the original post. The thread had always been open to accept any reply by pressing the Post Reply button to the bottom left of the last post in the thread.

    Peter Davies posted a comment on this thread
    "The Forum will not permit me to post a reply to "The Fly No more" thread. So I am proposing a debate as a new thread."

    Having checked that the thread was still open and accepting posts I replied to Peter Davies on this thread with the comment "pressing the correct button", the correct button being the Post Reply one.

    I am currently trying to get ASN to remove the extensive copyright breach on my publication so saw red when Peter Clare used my forum to post a uncredited cut and paste from that site asking for a look up from Colin Cummings publication to confirm the data.

    Most of Peter Clare's recent postings requesting look ups on this forum are for questions/research by others on World War 2 forum.

    Although Peter Clare has acknowledged nearly all of the answers his use of posting from Coastal Command Losses without asking permission rankles as did a recent exchange on Catalina FP214.

    Both Ragnar and myself took the time to answer the query with Ragnar's post containing a wayward [

    "Catalina Ib, FP214: Flew into high ground at night near Algeciras, Spain [at Puerto El Cabrito, between Tarifa and Algeciras. Eight crew kill, two injured.

    Ragnar"

    Peter Clare's subsequent post on WW2 talk contains the same wayward [ but omits any acknowledgement of source.

    Quote:
    HAROLD STERLING BROWN, Flight Sergeant, 553965, 202 Sqdn, Died 09 June 1943

    Catalina Ib, FP214: Flew into high ground at night near Algeciras, Spain [at Puerto El Cabrito, between Tarifa and Algeciras. Eight crew killed, two injured.

    Regards
    Peter
    __________________
    'Hurricane, 1940'

    Just twisted scrap thrown on a dump Strips of wing and a Merlin sump
    Old Fighter plane
    Your flight is done Your landings made and Victories won
    Gun barrels scorched and motors tired Your masters fought as men inspired
    Old Fighter plane
    They trusted you Who faithfully served the Gallant Few
    Casually now they fly around Jet propelled at speed of sound
    New Fighter planes
    Fierce in your power Spare thought for those who had their hour

    Harold Balfour

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/war-cemeteries-war-memorial-research/21571-help-raf-casualtys-2.html

    It was with this background that I said that the posting of an uncredited cut and paste from ASN on my site asking for a lookup by someone else from Colin's book did not sit well with me.

    When my forum is being used to host either a link or cut and paste from a site that I personally feel unacceptable I will say so and give my reasons.

    Ross
    The Intellectual Property contained in this message has been assigned specifically to this web site.
    Copyright Ross McNeill 2015/2018 - All rights reserved.

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    Default

    Peter: your view of what is inevitable may not agree with everyone's, and you do rather pass too quickly over the commercial aspects.

    If you do wish to insult those you see as opponents by slapping around historical references, it pays to be more precise. Alfred was the only English king to be titled as The Great, and (apart from killing Danes, which has rather gone out of fashion) this was because of his efforts towards increased literacy and knowledge. Someone to be respected not reviled. He was also known for burning some cakes, but I don't quite see the relevance of that here.

    From the context, I feel you were thinking of Canute and the waves. This was originally recorded not as the folly of Canute, but his wisdom as a rebuke to those sycophants who overrated his power. The distortion is due to later more foolish storytellers, who look at the surface but not at deeper meanings. Which is a pointer to the problems with inadequate research in all matters, and entirely relevant to boards such as this!

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    Default

    Hi
    Just my personal thoughts, I can see both sides to copyright.

    true people spend time putting books together, this should be respected,
    i.e. an entire book should not be uploaded to somewhere like rapidshare or likewise.

    but the basic source of the info in the book is surely the government files.

    My research is raf harrowbeer mainly, yet when reseaching on the net i see many 'words' virtually identical to my small book, yet i obtained most of the research from the government files, (AHB, RAF, PRO/NA, etc ), so in my opinion I can't really object.

    My personal biggest 'beef' is people who scan old aircraft manuals etc, then claim copyright on them..

    Apologies if I have drifted O/T.

    cheers
    Jerry

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    Default

    Dear All,
    Thankyou for your responses (some off Forum/Board). Clearly, there is a problem here - to which I alluded!
    Then, let me apologise most humbly for getting my English Kings mixed up with my Kings of England - and me with early 1950's O Levels in English History, and European History!! Unforgiveable. But, with respect, only used to illustrate a point!
    More importantly - I never had the slightest intent to insult anybody (I reserve that for my very closest friends and allies!!).
    What I was trying to point out was that if the Music Industry can't protect its Copyrights, etc, then what hope (in Law) is there for the rest of us? - not a lot!
    A number of scientific institutions already publish some of their papers ONLY to the internet - i.e. no paper copy! Some internet sites (Free BMD, etc) are - to use the UK TV broadcast analogy - Free To Air. Some - like TNA, and Find My Past, and others, etc, etc, - require you to be able to look for (relatively!) free, but if you want detail then you have to pay. I can't argue with that.
    But - and my point was - if you want to be part of the future methods of publishing (whatever they may be) then it would seem to be nugatory to stick religiously to the Old Methods which are, already, shown to be capable of easy circumvention by those far more computer capable than I.
    Let us have a simple debate. It may achieve nothing but - and this is important - it may provide an avenue whereby the thousands (nay, millions) of hours spent researching is, actually, made available to the next generation of researchers! The difficulty is in deciding how, and at what cost? You, younger, whizz-kids have the answer. What is it?
    HTH
    Peter Davies
    Meteorology is a science; good meteorology is an art!
    We might not know - but we might know who does!

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    Default Similar Problems

    Gentlemen,

    I sympathize with those whose work is used by others without acknowledgement. I recently submitted an article for publication and the editor eliminated all endnotes detailing actual sources of information used/cited. Instead, only a bibilography will be provided.

    I spent many years researching the history of all known civil-registered de Havilland Mosquito aircraft world-wide. This compilation was serialized in articles published in both non-profit Canadian Aviation Historical Society and American Aviation Historical Society journals, and BOAC Mosquito information posted on <Mossie.org> web site.

    Recently someone pointed out the following Air Britian web site: <www.ab-ix.co.uk> Scroll down to "The First Files -Files Donated 2009" and click. Then scroll down to "01 Oct 09 Update" and click on "de Havilland Mosquito Civil"

    I was quite surprised to read information derived from my articles listed with no reference as to actual source. I contacted the Air Britain person in charge of the site. Apparently, people lifted and provided him this information, not citing the original sources. Trusting them, he posted this information to the Mosquito civil file. I know for a fact the web page contains errors, including my own. No doubt someone will quote this/my mis-information.

    Last week I dispatched a CD to him containing scans of my civil Mosquito articles to prove my case. The above web page also contains information from another Canadian who published articles on civil Mosquitoes, with no reference to his work (Fly Past/Air Enthusiast).

    I do not fault this individual; he is performing this task to the best of his abilities. Air Britian is a highly respected international historical association. But they must formulate a standard policy not to detail information on their web pages without providing actual sources of this information, e.g. magazine articles, offical FAA/CAA files, web sites?, books, etc. with corresponding dates, volume, and page number where possible. How else may others check to verify if the information has credence and challenge any discrepencies?

    If someone submits information to the A/B Mosquito file, then their name as the submitter must be listed next to the data being detailed as a permanent record. This will discourage people from lifting information from the works (errors?) of others without proper acknowledgement.

    Norman Malayney

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    Norman,

    One trusts that Air-Britain will post the name of the offender on its AB-IX site and ban him or her from membership of the society. These lazy and irresponsible 'copying' cretins need to be exposed as a warning to others.

    Errol

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