Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 26

Thread: 24 Nov. 1943 Losses

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    50
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default 24 Nov. 1943 Losses

    Good afternoon,

    I am trying to discover more about the fate of 17 Wellington bombers, dispatched from Tunisia (Oudna and Djijeida) to attack a ball bearing factory in Turin (Northern Italy) and failed to return the night of 24 November 1943.
    I know that 17 planes disappeared from the Air Historical Branch' investigation, but I already know the crash sites of two planes, LN466 and a second one, probably from 40 Sqn., crashed near the village of Bratto. Some of them probably fell on Sardinia.

    Not fighting for the Bomber Command, I did not find more in "Lost Bombers".

    May you help me, please?

    Marco

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Dublin
    Posts
    4,522
    Thanks
    5
    Thanked 36 Times in 33 Posts

    Default

    Here is list of casualties from 104, 142, 37, 40 and 70 Squadron's RAF.

    This does not look very well, next week perhaps I can place a PDF copy or I can email you the excel sheet I placed it into.

    This is created from Geoff Sullivans interface search engine for the CWGC database.
    http://www.hut-six.co.uk/cgi-bin/search39-47.php

    Principle was to search for all RAF men from the squadrons listed above between dates 24/11/1943-25/11/1943.
    Then search for all RAAF, RCAF, RNZAF and SAAF on the same dates, and notice where they are buried and what unit they are with if that information is given (Note, All the Australian men had to be cross referenced with AWM Nominal Roll and Roll of Honour.

    Then noting the Malta Memorial and the names of Cemeteries found above and I came up with a list of 74 airmen. Of note is SAAF airman D H Larter, his date of death is Dec 1st but he is buried among other airmen from this date and 60 Squadron was in the Far East at this time.

    Also, RAFVR airman Bowman has no unit listed against him but is buried between Smith and Barton listed as 142 Squadron. And he is confirmed with 142 Sqn in the ORB from the Key Publishing thread from Alan Clark.

    I don't claim that this is comprehensive but is a good start I think. I may have missed a squadron for example. It would suggest a mix of 5 man and 6 man crews I think. This does not account for anyone who became a prisoner of war.

    The spread sheet has colour coding showing patterns in chaos,

    The below list is sorted by burial, showing for instance group burials.

    ref Surname intials no unit date Service Cem/Mem
    32 SHAW AE J/17147 70 SQDN 25/11/1943 ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE Agira C, H, 366.
    11 GOSLING TJ 159880 40 SQDN 25/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE Cagl I. C. 11.
    3 CHALMERS G 1132879 40 SQDN 25/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Cagl I. C. 12.
    5 HUDDLESTONE A 632024 70 SQDN 25/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE Cata I. H. 10.
    4 HENDERSON RC 127040 70 SQDN 25/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Cata I. H. 11.
    10 SMART JG 1578501 70 SQDN 25/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Cata I. H. 12.
    1 CAUDLE RH 1835935 37 SQDN 25/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Flor Coll. grave V. H. 14.
    3 CROPPER H 1454286 37 SQDN 25/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Flor Coll. grave V. H. 14.
    5 MULCAHY RE 143255 37 SQDN 25/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Flor Coll. grave V. H. 14.
    6 SAUNDERS MW 1337027 37 SQDN 25/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Flor Coll. grave V. H. 14.
    8 TAYLOR WA 1097980 37 SQDN 25/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Flor Coll. grave V. H. 14.
    9 WILSON JC 1238810 37 SQDN 25/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Flor Coll. grave V. H. 14.
    3 BOWERING G 1439758 142 SQDN 25/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Flor Coll. grave V. J. 7-9.
    11 TOPP GU 1606927 142 SQDN 25/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Flor Coll. grave V. J. 7-9.
    2 ARMSTRONG GP R/157239 142 RAF SQDN 25/11/1943 ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE Flor Coll. grave V. J. 7-9.
    24 MAIR CM J/22694 142 RAF SQDN 25/11/1943 ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE Flor Coll. grave V. J. 7-9.
    31 OUELLETTE SJ R/124429 142 RAF SQDN 25/11/1943 ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE Flor Coll. grave V. J. 7-9.
    3 CHESTERS CP 1130746 104 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Malta Memorial
    6 DAVIES DH 1317445 104 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Malta Memorial
    10 WIGGINS JG 1396639 104 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Malta Memorial
    6 COOPER DL 1331029 40 SQDN 25/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Malta Memorial
    8 CROSSE DEL 1395266 40 SQDN 25/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Malta Memorial
    11 BUSHELL G 8393 40 SQDN 25/11/1943 ROYAL AUSTRALIAN AIR FORCE Malta Memorial
    9 CAMERON CF R/146083 104 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE Malta Memorial
    4 CARTER KR 933794 142 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Milan Coll. grave VI. B. 6.
    8 LAWRENCE EW 1392140 142 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Milan Coll. grave VI. B. 6.
    16 GLENWRIGHT AC 410323 142 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AUSTRALIAN AIR FORCE Milan Coll. grave VI. B. 6.
    21 KNAPP JF 415664 142 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AUSTRALIAN AIR FORCE Milan Coll. grave VI. B. 6.
    38 WADE JG 413050 142 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AUSTRALIAN AIR FORCE Milan Coll. grave VI. B. 6.
    13 TAAFFE RJ 41502 37 RAF SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL NEW ZEALAND AIR FORCE Milan IV. A. 10.
    1 FITCH HW J/3485 37 RAF SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE Milan IV. A. 12.
    4 HOLME WG 1325759 37 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Milan IV. A. 14.
    2 WHEATLEY CH J/16324 37 RAF SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE Milan IV. B. 9.
    2 CROKER DW 922939 37 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Milan Joint grave IV C. 1-2.
    7 SHELTON J 1379941 37 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Milan Joint grave IV. C. 1-2.
    13 HAEGI FH 659090 40 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE Stag Coll. grave III. A. 12-15.
    5 COLVIN RS 1691852 40 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag Coll. grave III. A. 12-15.
    10 EAGLES WA 136527 40 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag Coll. grave III. A. 12-15.
    14 HARTHILL JC 139722 40 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag Coll. grave III. A. 12-15.
    2 ANDREWS WC 410614 40 RAF SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AUSTRALIAN AIR FORCE Stag Coll. grave III. A. 12-15.
    1 AMBROSE HW 1334919 104 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag Coll. grave III. A. 30.
    2 CANOVAN SI 1238313 104 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag Coll. grave III. A. 30.
    4 COURTNEY RJ 1585029 104 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag Coll. grave III. A. 30.
    7 JOHNSON W 1078974 104 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag Coll. grave III. A. 30.
    8 VICKERS DR 74622 104 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag Coll. grave III. A. 30.
    9 WELSH RW 131982 104 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag Coll. grave III. A. 30.
    1 BAYNTON C 1168793 70 SQDN 25/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag Coll. grave III. B. 16-20.
    3 GREEN J 1497992 70 SQDN 25/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag Coll. grave III. B. 16-20.
    11 WILLIAMSON J 1093296 70 SQDN 25/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag Coll. grave III. B. 16-20.
    12 WILLMOTT GHE 1127139 70 SQDN 25/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag Coll. grave III. B. 16-20.
    30 SANDERSON LP 414164 70 SQDN 25/11/1943 ROYAL AUSTRALIAN AIR FORCE Stag Coll. grave III. B. 16-20.
    5 CLARK HA 1295124 142 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag Coll. grave III. C. 15-20.
    7 KNIGHT WR 659065 142 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag Coll. grave III. C. 15-20.
    10 SUMMERS FE 1335486 142 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag Coll. grave III. C. 15-20.
    31 SMITH ADJ 420634 142 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AUSTRALIAN AIR FORCE Stag Coll. grave III. C. 15-20.
    36 TYAS RC 411617 142 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AUSTRALIAN AIR FORCE Stag Coll. grave III. C. 15-20.
    21 LEBOLDUS JA R/155568 142 RAF SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE Stag Coll. grave III. C. 15-20.
    8 MARSHALL GW 135651 70 SQDN 25/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag III. B. 21.
    9 PAPWORTH BH 1335836 70 SQDN 25/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag III. B. 22.
    7 LONGLEY RW 1202743 70 SQDN 25/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag III. B. 23.
    2 BUCKLE DGG 1810316 70 SQDN 25/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag III. B. 24.
    6 JAMES CA 1417380 70 SQDN 25/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag III. B. 25.
    2 LARTER DH 38232V 60 SQDN 01/12/1943 SOUTH AFRICAN AIR FORCE Stag III. B. 26.
    2 BETTS DH 1318481 142 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag III. B. 27.
    6 HURNELL HP 1319781 142 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag III. B. 28.
    9 SMITH SF 991606 142 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag III. B. 29.
    5 BOWMAN CT 1291113 142 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag III. B. 30.
    1 BARTON SA 1213198 142 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag III. B. 31.
    5 CROSSLEY DM 63455 104 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag III. B. 9.
    18 MIDDLETON F 1330281 40 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag III. C. 13.
    2 CARTER N 934904 40 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag III. C. 14.
    9 CROWE GW 997721 40 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag III. C. 21.
    3 CARR WL 421316 40 RAF SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL NEW ZEALAND AIR FORCE Stag III. C. 22.
    24 STRONG KJ 132814 40 SQDN 24/11/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Stag III. C. 23.

    The Key Publishing thread would probably be useful to link here as it adds info:
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=94546
    Last edited by dennis_burke; 8th January 2010 at 16:47. Reason: Bowman confirmed as 142 Sqn, added Key publishing forum link.
    Dennis Burke
    - Dublin

    Foreign Aircrew and Aircraft Ireland 1939-1945
    www.ww2irishaviation.com

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    50
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Thank you very much. Incredible, so many losses just for bad weather??


    Anyway, 17 planes x 5 crew members, 85 victims at all.. Maybe some on them escaped.

    My only reference, right now, is "Wellingon Wings" from F.R. Chappell, pages 215-216 about the 205 Group worst operation, but I still have not this book.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Aubers, France
    Posts
    2,385
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts

    Default

    hello,

    From the appendices of "Sweeping the Skies - a history of No. 40 Squadron RFC and RAF 1916-1956" by David GUNBY, (I just give the surname, you'll pick the details from Dennis' post) :
    Wellington III DF374 'G' : CARTER, CARR RNZAF, MIDDLETON, STRONG, CROWE, crashed into mountains near Genoa in severe weather. All are buried in Staglieno Cemetery, Genoa.
    Wellington X HZ552 'M' : HAEGI, EAGLES, ANDREWS RAAF, HARTHILL, COLVIN, crashed into mountains near Genoa. This crew is also buried in Staglieno Cemetery, Genoa.
    Wellington X HE485 'M' : GOSLING, BUSHELL RAAF, CHALMERS, CROSSE, COOPER. Crew radio'd that it was baling out over Sardinia, but came down in thesea. P/O GOSLING and F/Sgt CHALMERS are buried in Cagliari (S. Michele) Cemetery ; the others are commemorated on the Malta Memorial.

    Errol MARTYN's "For your Tomorrow" volume 2 has en entry about CARR, which gives the crash site as Monte Zatta (Monte Tacche ?). They were initially buried in Montoggio civil cemetery, and transfered to Staglieno cemetery later.
    The following entry is about F/L TAAFFE, RNZAF, from No. 37 Squadron, captain of Wellington X LN329, lost during the same operation. No details about the crash site, the crew of 6 is buried in Milan.

    "Wise without eyes 37 Squadron RAF 1939-1945' by Kevin MEARS is not very detailed, but gives the crew compositions as : TAAFE, FITCH, WHEATLEY, CROKER, HOLME and SALTON,
    SAUNDERS, MULCAHY, WILSON, TAYLOR, CROPPER and CAUDLE. the crews of F/O GILBERT and W/O GRIFFIN baled out over Corsica and Megrine respectively.

    Hope this helps

    Joss

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    50
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Hi all,


    Thanks!, very interesting, I will look better tomorrow from CWGC database for further informations.

    Do you have any other references?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Cornwall
    Posts
    2,766
    Thanks
    70
    Thanked 14 Times in 13 Posts

    Default

    Hello,

    These are the only Wellington losses that I could find that matched.

    LN329 - 37 Sqn
    HF523 - 37 Sqn
    HF478 - 37 Sqn
    HZ473 - 37 Sqn
    HZ513 - 37 Sqn
    DF734 - 40 Sqn
    ( note: Joss has quoted DF374 this would have been an Oxford but there is a serial break between DF367 and DF390)
    HZ552 - 40 Sqn
    LN336 - 70 Sqn
    HZ182 - 70 Sqn
    LN338 - 104 Sqn
    LN386 - 104 Sqn
    LN466 - 142 Sqn
    LN566 - 142 Sqn
    HE929 - 142 Sqn
    HF694 - 142 Sqn
    HZ305 - 142 Sqn
    HE612 - 150 Sqn

    (Joss also quoted HE485 this is noted as an 86 OTU a/c that came down in Notts on 30.8.44.)
    All the above are noted in the Air Britain series books.
    Alex
    Last edited by Alex Smart; 9th January 2010 at 04:24.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    50
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Hi Alex and thank you very much,


    So we have 17 bombers - I have to ask to the forum if someone could scan and send me the page from Air Britain book, please..!

    The problem is, now, to understand where did each plane crash.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Aubers, France
    Posts
    2,385
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts

    Default

    Hello Alex,

    You're correct, two typos of mine when copying David Gunby's book : Indeed DF734 'G', and HE487 'M'.

    I didn't check with Air-Britain books as this is really not my area of research. I was just willing to help.

    Joss

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    50
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Very sorry,

    I have never heard before about these Air Britain book' series. May you explain me more about them? Maybe they're similar to the Chorley papers, or to the Bomber Command war diaries I already bought?

    M.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Dublin
    Posts
    4,522
    Thanks
    5
    Thanked 36 Times in 33 Posts

    Default

    Marco, the AB books are lists of aircraft, not like the Chorley books.

    They list aircraft like this

    LN325 23 OTU/23/35 Crashed on xx/xx/xxxx
    LN326 34/37 Scrapped
    LN327 37 Shot down xx/xx/xxxx
    LN328 37 Scrapped
    LN329 37 Lost in bad weather 24.11.1943

    I have only made up the above list, it is NOT a transcript of the book, the AB books do not list crew members.

    There are a small number of Canadian airmen among the list above.

    YOu need to request their service records to find out what became of them and their crews.

    See the details at this site:
    Since a number of the crew members were members of the Royal Canadian Air Force you must contact the the Canadian Archives and request from them extracts from teh two mens service records. The extracts will be free, the full service record will will incur a charge. Ask for those four airmens records with emphasis on any reports of the crash and reasons for same:

    The contact details for the Canadian Archives are here:

    http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/genealogy/022-909.007-e.html

    You must check out the link above as it contains their procedures. Will take a few weeks for the records but worth the wait usually.

    Dennis
    Dennis Burke
    - Dublin

    Foreign Aircrew and Aircraft Ireland 1939-1945
    www.ww2irishaviation.com

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •