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Thread: Lancaster ED860 156/61sqdns

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    Default Lancaster ED860 156/61sqdns

    Hi,
    Whilst researching the 156/61sqdn ORB's for the operational tally of this a/c, i came across something that does not add up.
    According to the ORB, the last op carried out for 156sqdn by this a/c was Aug 23rd 43 to Berlin with the Thomson crew, take off 20.16, landed 03.20.
    But! according to the 61sqdn ORB, the first op flown was also on the 23rd Aug 43 to Berlin with the Lowe crew, take off 20.30, landed 04.01, apart from this being an obvious mistake by one of the squadron diarists, are there any other thoughts on this as to which is correct.
    TIA
    Last edited by AlanW; 10th January 2010 at 14:51.

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    Default

    Hi Alan,
    it is only guess but from my own experience I will guess that the typo is in the ORB of unit which the plane left. I have several times came across the record of plane serila in the ORB which was destroyed/damaged/posted away. I suppose this was caused by the inertia of the author who was used to write this serial for several months and it takes few days to recognised this plane is no more with the unit:-)

    But definetely it does not means it is also your case. It is only one of the possibilities.

    BR

    Pavel
    Czechoslovak Airmen in the RAF 1940-1945
    http://cz-raf.webnode.cz

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    Hi Pavel,
    Thanks for the input. ED860 moved from 156 to 61 sometime in August 43 but no specific date known. I've since checked with the 156sqdn website and they confirm that ED860 was on the Berlin op of 23rd August, but this info probably also came from the 156 ORB.
    Regards.......Alan.

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    Hi Alan
    Apologies if this confuses matters further.
    ED860 was one of the Centurions mentioned in Norman Frank's book "Claims to Fame:The Lancaster".He shares your confusion about the transfer from 156-61.He seems to favour the Berlin trip as being done by Sgt M C Lowe and states that the a/c was assigned to 61 at Syerston on Aug 20th. There might be some mileage to be had from the different Stations of the 2 Sqns if indeed they were different. He feels that the last 156 op was to Milan on 15/16 Aug. and that the confusion is simply slack paper work on 156 Sqn.It may be a coincidence that the times for the Milan and Berlin trips are recorded as nearly identical,Milan 2035-0401, Berlin 2030-0401, however Franks also has the a/c as doing the Milan op on 15/16 Aug with a W/O G Denwood!!! but taking off 1 hr later.
    On the Berlin op he records an 8th crew member in the shape of F/Sgt J G McAlpine as 2nd pilot with McAlpine taking ED860 to Nuremberg on 27/28 Aug with another(?his own) crew and this may provide a clue to sorting out the Sqn if you know the personnel.
    Regards
    Dick

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    Hi Dick,
    Confusion is'nt the word, having just checked through the 61sqdn ORB, i'm convinced ED860 must have had a twin:-) as on 22nd Oct 43 she appears twice on the same op to Kassel, one being flown by F/O Fitch and the twin by F/Lt Scott, just goes to show how sloppy the records are.
    I've just ordered the AM Form 78 for her to see what that states for the transfer date but would have thought that Franks would have consulted this file anyway.
    I'll send you the list i have from the two ORB's, which i'm working out for the son of a pilot who flew this a/c with 61sqdn in 1944, you will see just why the transfer date of 20th Aug has thrown everything out.
    Last edited by AlanW; 11th January 2010 at 13:47.

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    Default 61 Sqdn ORB

    Many of you researchers must feel frustrated when you come across inaccuracies in WW2 squadron records. I feel myself that complete records that we all want were not a high priority. If the people concerned could have known how strong the interest was going to be in later years things MIGHT have been better. I would be delighted to have a copy of the ORB for my own squadron, 61, from 1945.

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    Hugh,
    Thanks for your thoughts on the subject, can you email me at the address given in my profile and i'll get back to you concerning 61sqd ORB 1945. When you say "my own squadron" are you the P/O Spencer of the Clarke crew?
    What makes this even more confusing is that i've just been sent a copy of the AM Form 78 card for this a/c, and it states that the ED860 transferred from 156 to 61 on 20th Aug 43, but the 156sqdn ORB has ops for her on 22nd,23rd, 27th Aug, and 3rd Sept. The only way this can be sorted is if the logbook of one or more of the crews concerned on each sqdn comes to light, but i'm not counting on that miracle happening.
    Regards......Alan.
    Last edited by AlanW; 12th January 2010 at 17:04.

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