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Thread: !!!Lancaster JB221 - No 97 Sqdn - Crash on 25./26. November 1943!!!

  1. #11
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    Felix
    Many thanks for this advice of the location of these airmen.
    I have emailed the 97 Squadron website to advise them of this discovery and to see if they can assist in locating Next of Kin, especially in Canada, Australia and America, where applying through the "normal" channels may take too long for suitable travel arrangements to be made in good time.
    By Googling, I found this information, which may clarify to other readers of this thread where the other Names have come from:-
    JB221 was delivered to 97 Sqdn 4 Sep 43. JB221 also took part in the Key Raid against Mannheim 23/24 Sep 43. No other Key Raids traced. When lost this aircraft had a total of 77 hours. Airborne 0030 26 Nov 43 from Bourn. Crashed at Brandau, 12 km SSW of Reinheim. At least five were buried at Brandau, although four, including F/L Brown, their American skipper, are now commemorated on the Runnymede Memorial.
    At Durnbach War Cemetery are the graves of F/O Aley RCAF and both Air Gunners.
    F/L C.M. Brown Croix de Guerre (France) RCAF KIA
    P/O G. Smith KIA
    P/O T. Watson KIA
    F/O H.C. Aley RCAF KIA
    Sgt B.F. Tutt KIA
    Sgt D.H.W. Little KIA
    F/S R.W. Sinden RAAF KIA
    No doubt the German authorities have already contacted the Ministry of Defence and RAF Liaison officer in Germany, and no doubt 97 Squadron would want to be represented together with any relatives of the entire crew, no able to be reunited in Durnbach.

    I have suggested that 97 Squadron participate in this thread to keep all advised of developments from "official" sources and it is to be hoped that the RBL local Branch as well could attend.

    With local newspaper details being given, would it be more appropriate for Forum Pals to be involved rather than leave it to Felix? That's if Felix has no objection of course!
    I believe there is a minimum of 10 posts required before email or Private Messages are enabled, so no doubt with a few replies on here, Felix will soon reach that number!

    Let's hope this gets the publicity it deserves and these men are laid to rest with their comrades.

  2. #12
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    Jonny,
    Well said, that man! There are the correct ways of doing things - and other ways! Let's stick to the correct ways! The other ways - however well meaning - nearly always end in tears!
    HTH
    Peter Davies
    Meteorology is a science; good meteorology is an art!
    We might not know - but we might know who does!

  3. #13
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    Peter,

    Although on Paternity Leave, I will take a trip into work tomorrow and touch base with my RAF SIB colleagues here in Rheindahlen. If they already have not been made aware of the potential recovery, I think they should be.

    Rest assured, I have absolutely no doubt that Felix and his colleagues are going about the recovery of the missing aircrew in the right fashion. I just want to be sure that the UK military authorities here in Germany are alive to this. I will not be making waves.

    ATB to one and all

    Jonny
    In fond memory of Corporal James Oakland AGC (RMP), killed in action in Afghanistan on 22 October 2009. Exemplo Ducemus.

  4. #14
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    Jonny ,Peter & Kevin
    I agree that approaching the British Embassy in Berlin is the correct way to "go about " finding crew relatives .But as Kevin writes the overseas relatives need time to plan travel. Agreed - a phone call is not the way to inform relatives. An official letter is best.

    There are people at Innsworth who deal with these matters but when a search was being made for my father's plane in a lake in Italy [organised by the Rome based British Defence Attache] I had to give them the present day addresses of other crew relatives as their Next of Kin addresses were long out of date .

    Regards
    Anne

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    Hi @ all!

    I think some guys misunderstood me.And I forgot to add some facts. Sorry about that.

    First of all, the British Embassy in Berlin was informed.

    I work together with a man who is well experienced in salvaging lost pilots of all nations. It's a Sergeant of the US Army. He is in the confidence of the British Embassy in Berlin!
    Please don't think that I want make profit with fallen RAF members by selling their story or something like that.It's my aim to give them a grave, a place where their relatives can mourn their family member!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny View Post
    There are proper and respectful ways of notifying relatives of the discovery of their dead kin and a phone call from Germany probably is not one of them.

    Sorry,but this insults me really! Do you think that I don't proceed respectful?And when did I talk about a phone call?

    When I informed the family of B.F.Tutt I didn't call them! I wrote to them a very respectful letter and they called me when they got it. They were full of thanks and said that they are very happy that I am the person who found the place, cause of my respectful behaviour.I wrote to them due to the following reason:Almost 10 years ago, the brother of B.F. Tutt wrote a letter to my community and asked for information about his brother,because all British organisations and comissions couldn't give information. They knew nothing about the fate of his brother!This man searched his brother for decades!!! And it was only a coincidence that I found the crashplace.
    So I think it is acceptable that I wrote to this family.Again: I did it with respect and I expressed my condolence.I think the positive response of the family speaks for itself!


    I'm happy that it will take the CORRECT way.It was everytime my intention to go the CORRECT way.Unfortunately there are some posts in this thread which doubts about my intentions and my honour. I think thats a great pity!

    Please don't think that there aren't people in Germany who aren't well-versed in such crew member fates.There are!

    In the end I want to express my thanks to all of you for your great engagement.
    Please let us solve this case together in a good neighbourly cooperation, because exactly this way shows why so many pilots gave their lifes not for nothing.Today we can talk/write as friends!!!

    With many regards

    Felix
    Last edited by JB221; 10th January 2010 at 18:03.

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    Felix,

    It is a shame that you have taken my posts out of context. It may have been better if, as someone new to the Forum and therefore an unkown to most of us on here, you had explained your position in a little more detail in advance.

    I maintain that it is not your job to inform the Next of Kin of British Military personnel missing from the Second World War. Well meaning or not, that is the job of the relevant British authority. I would also maintain that a letter from you should also never be the right way to break the news. A visit from a representative from the correct UK authority is the proper way to break the news of the discovery of a missing relative. I recognise that this may be a something that you are not familiar with, but breaking news to relatives and the system that should be used in a case like this, is something that I am totally familiar with, so please do not attempt to tell that what you are doing is right (even though it may be honourable). Asking for contact details so that you can break the news - which is what you stated in your first post - is not on.

    Anne,

    Thank you. An official letter is not the way forward. A personal visit from a UK mil rep is. Whilst I recognise that you may have been asked to find the families of the missing in your case, each case differs. Your case was already being handled by the Defence Attache (in conjunction with SO2 Historic Cases at the JCCC I am sure). As you are aware, we have had a number of problems in the UK of people digging up missing airmen and as a result, stringent legislation has been brought into force in an attempt to prevent this. That legislation does not apply here in Germany. Felix is an unknown to me, but this type of approach does not fill me with confidence. It should be co-ordinated by HMG and the Canadian Government.

    As long as this is above board, I will back straight off.

    Rgds

    Jonny
    In fond memory of Corporal James Oakland AGC (RMP), killed in action in Afghanistan on 22 October 2009. Exemplo Ducemus.

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    Anne,

    I have just re-read my last post and apologies if it came across as being rather curt. That was not my intention when addressing you.

    Kind rgds

    Jonny
    In fond memory of Corporal James Oakland AGC (RMP), killed in action in Afghanistan on 22 October 2009. Exemplo Ducemus.

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    Johnny,

    I don't want to start a quarrel in this board.I started my post at the recommendation of Theo Boiten also a member of this board I think.
    I think it is sad that you don't have confidence to me!
    I've never said that I have the competence to evaluate what should be done in such a case and what right or wrong is.It would never occur to me to deny your competence,knowledge and experience regarding this case.

    I DON'T WANT TO TAKE THE PLACE OF THE BRITISH AUTHOURITIES

    AND

    I DON'T HAVE ANY INTENTIONS WHICH GIVE OCASSION TO BE SUSPICIOUS

    Edit: I've sent a message to Jonny. I think it will clear our misunderstandings!
    Sorry,perhaps my descriptions in english get across in another way than meant by me.
    Last edited by JB221; 10th January 2010 at 21:55.

  9. #19
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    OK, Felix has confirmed that the British Embassy has been informed and I believe they have sufficient experience to ensure that this is handled correctly and sensitively.
    I believe that he probably did not express himself as well as he would have liked to clarify the situation, but as the authorities have been contacted, can we move on?

    In the links provided in Felix's first post, one takes you to a photograph of the JB221 crew (although as the Lanc is coded "C" I don't think is JB221 which had the codes OF-W). nonetheless, it's the crew lost on JB221.
    Here is the easier link to the photo:-
    http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=79507
    Thanks Felix for your fulsome apology, I think we are all now clear that this is being handled correctly.
    Obviously this will entail correction at the Memorial at Runnymede in due course.
    Felix, can you keep us advised of developments with the British Embassy, CWGC and others so we know when any ceremony may take place?
    Tschuss!

  10. #20
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    Thanks KevinW4. I ensure to you all that I will keep you advised!

    Many greetings

    Felix

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