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Thread: Hudson Loss 27-12-42

  1. #11
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    I had a look in Lockheed Hudson by Hendrie last night and at least 2 500 Sqn Hudsons with NO Fate listed are: V9109 and AM568

    However V9109 was lost 30/01/42 as it has come up before...

    http://www.rafcommands.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?forum=DCForumID6&mark=8018&az=previous _topic&archive=yes

    So can anyone provide a fate for AM568

  2. #12
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    Hi Paul,

    As usual it is not quite as simple as "one in one out".

    The primary documents are incomplete and in some cases incorrect. It looks like the supervising officer was very lenient on errors and these have propogated through to other documents.

    For example:
    AM638 is listed in the Form 78 as assigned to No.500 Sqn and failed to return 13 Jan 1941. Not recorded on any Form 1180 (may be misfiled), Not in squadron ORB, Not in 16 Group ORB.

    I suspect that the aircraft was actually assigned to No.5 OTU.

    AM677 is listed in Form 78 as assigned to squadron but does not appear in squadron ORB or group ORB.

    AM640 is listed in Form 78 as assigned to the squadron but again does not appear in any squadron or group documents

    15/11/42 a total loss is recorded in the group and orbs but no Form 78/Form1180 records a Cat E Hudson accident.

    Hendry/AB Serials et al have used the Form 78 to assign the aircraft to the squadron but I have a low confidence of this detail when compared to casualty/squadron orb/group orb evidence.

    Regards
    Ross

  3. #13
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    Ross

    Thanks for the very interesting post and shows the pitfalls of relying on a single piece of evidence

    Paul

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    I've reopened this discussion back on the original PlaneTalk forum where it first started:

    http://forum.planetalk.net/viewtopic.php?t=5550&postdays=0&postorder=asc&star t=0&sid=879002c4ef2818d9e16d76ebdce7f5ad

    ...and have made it a topic in its own right there:

    http://forum.planetalk.net/viewtopic.php?t=10626

    ...and here I was advised to take a look at The National Archives of Australia, as their records are very thorough ... F/Lt Desmond Victor Varian had an RAAF Wireless Operator/Air Gunner, Sergeant Fletcher MCKENDRICK (403201), on board when his 500 (County of Kent) Squadron Hudson MkV 'W' was lost on 27th December 1942 ... and the NAA give his Hudson the serial Number: AM 689!

    Does anyone here have any thoughts about this? Is John Pugh's 500 (County of Kent) Squadron Hudson MkV 'M', as mentioned on www.uboat.net as being shot down by U-73 given the correct serial number? Or was his serial number (by coincidence) AM 698?

    Regards to all,

    Stiggy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ross_McNeill View Post
    No.500 Sqn lost two aircraft on that day. Coded W and M

    M was AM698 crew:

    P/O J Pugh
    Sgt Broomfield
    F/Sgt Wilkins
    Sgt Emberson

    Took off from Blida for a strike at 06;04 hrs.

    This was the loss shot down by the U-73 at 08:15 hrs. All on board the Hudson were rescued.
    George Wilkins has just posted a very interesting thread to my '500 Squadron Hudson(s) AM689 or AM698 or ?' topic over on 'PlaneTalk':

    To quote:
    "...my grandfathers RAF history ... I have his Log Book and recorded in this it was not Hudson 698 but Hudson 638 M that they ditched on that day. Quote " 27.12.42 ... 06.04 hrs ... Aircraft 638 M ... Pilot P/O Pugh ... Attacked Submarine (Italian). Sub was fully surfaced. dc's straddled sub. Shot down by same. Aircraft Ditched. 7 1/2 hours in dinghy. Rescued by Walrus after being sighted by u/500. f/lt Barwood."

    It would appear that AM698 has been misread in the past (and used very liberally), and that P/O John Pugh's 500 Squadron Hudson that ditched in the Med on 27th December 1942 was in fact AM638!

  6. #16
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    George Wilkins has posted a page from his grandfather's logbook at on PlaneTalk at:

    http://forum.planetalk.net/viewtopic.php?t=10626

    Sgt. Wilkins was a crew member of P/O John Pugh's 500 Squadron Hudson Mk.V 'M' AM638 that was shot down by U-73 on 27 thDec 1942. The reference clearly shows the serial number, and also clearly shows that the same crew flew Hudson AM689 on the 18th December 1942, the aircraft piloted by F/Lt Desmond Victor Varian when it went missing on 27th December 1942.

    Here is a link to the same image on photobucket:

    http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p532/George_Wilkins/logbook.jpg

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    For Ross McNeill ... I've tried sending you a private message but your message box is full ... email didn't work either! Can you contact me please,
    Regards,
    Stiggy

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