AM form 1180 Hendon + Air Historical Cards

[david cullen]

I'm confused as to what difference if any there is between the AM form 1180 held at Hendon and the Crash Cards I was told which are at the Air Historical Branch, RAF Northolt?

Also how many aircraft casualties between them do these reports include?

[Oldduffer]

I think you will find the original Forms 1180 are held at the Air Historical Branch at Northolt whilst microfilmed copies are kept by the Dept of Research and Info Systems at the RAF Museum Hendon.

As to numbers, I doubt if anyone has ever counted!! The cards record all notifiable accidents, whether or not the aircraft is written off or an injury or death sustained.

Whilst the majority relate to RAF aircraft, there are some variations involving RAF personnel with other air forces. So you might find a series of cards dealing with AT6 Harvards in the USA where the pilot was RAF and he was killed but you won't find non fatal accidents in the batch. As an idea of numbers; there were 9300 aircraft written off between VE-Day and 1996 and over 6500 fatal casualties in the same period. There are, therefore, possibly a total of say 50000 cards for the same period.

As a separate set of records, the Aircraft Movements Cards are also held at Hendon on microfilm. These are filed by type and serial number within type.

Old Duffer

[dennis_burke]

Perhaps what your asking about is the differnece between the AM Form 1180 held on microfilm at Hendon and the Form 765 that sometimes are dug out. The 1180 is a two sided brief report, hand written in all cases I've seen. Names the Pilot(s) only and can give a brief or slightly detailed synopsis of the loss/incident.

The Form 765 is a larger, depending on the format, two to four page, with all crew listed by initials and service numbers, a little more detail on the aircraft and flight and then typed up synopsis of the incident and statements of reasons/blame/findings from commanding officers.

You can find these in Australian airmens casualty files on the Australian national archives website, an example of a form 765 will be with

F/Sgt Sydney James Herbert Young 424503 RAAF +
F/Sgt Reginald Joseph Tudehope 424479 RAAF +

who were lost with Anson DJ639. Check out the casualty files for those two men.

They are also in many of the Canadian airmen's service files from the LAC in Ottowa.

If your real lucky, with a Canadian or Australian man you will find a Form 412 which is a Court of Inquiry report. This has more narrative and findings again.

I understand that the AHB has or may have the Form 765 in some cases. I have only seen one report from that source, sent to one of our airmens sons, it was redacted so they typed it out in word and removed details of mens serial numbers and injuries.

I think what your on about is Form 1180 versus Form 765. i'd be a happy man if I had a pile of Form 765's.

This is a 765:
http://www.skynet.ie/~dan/temp/dw110/DW110_F765.pdf

[Scott McIntosh]

Are the 765 forms available for public viewing or by researchers?

Or is it one of the military only files in the uk and if your lucky enough to find someones private research.

[CZ_RAF]

Hi all, by luck I found in past some Forms 765 here in Prague archive but there only few and covering strictly the accidents of Czechoslovak fighter pilots for some unknown reason to me.

Pavel

[david cullen]

Thanks prticularly Dennis and Old Duffer
The riddle I was trying to resolve was actually if there was any difference between the crash cards at Hendon and the ones at Northolt.
Thanks, as it appears not.
I'm thinking that the AM765 is related more spcifically to boards of enquiry rather than just brief record such as was the case in the war when perhaps time for detailed enquiries was more 'of the essence' than it is today and crashes were in the main resultant of enemy action.
It is very useful to know however that in such cases such enquiries may be found in Aircrew files where relevant.

Next question I'm afraid, is how may I approach the Air Historical Branch to view their crash cards?
Hendon will dispatch the odd copy, and I've got 2, but I have a feeling their resources limit access to line fishing rather than a trawl.
Dave

[Dave_Richardson]

Dave

To contact the AHB you can either write to them here:

The Air Historical Branch (RAF)
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
Bentley Priory Building, RAF Northolt, West End Road, Ruislip
Middlesex HA4 6NG

or email them here:
ahb.raf@btconnect.com

I emailed them for details of my uncle's aircraft. I'd previously been told that they very rarely send out copies of the AM 765 . Why they don't conserve what they've got and digitise them so they can be made available easily I don't know, probably the cost involved. Here's what I got in response:

"Thank you for your e-mail of 26 February 2011 seeking a copy of or information from Air Ministry Form 765c relating to the loss of Stirling R9329 on 21 August 1942. I can confirm that we hold a copy of the F765c but it is very fragile and in a poor state, having been produced on wartime paper and much handled in the succeeding years. I have therefore extracted the information below from it:

“The aircraft was returning from a mining operation and from the accounts of the other aircraft in the area it is likely that this was the one heavily engaged by to [2?] ground defences and probably damaged. Return would therefore be made at low level and it would appear that allowance was not made for rising ground, up to 600’, in the area where landfall was made”"

They went on to tell me how to get copies of the squadrom ORB and my uncle's service record.

I understand that the 765 usually consists of 4 pages:

Page 1 gives details of date & time of loss, location, Group, Command, Unit, nature of the flight, time of day and information about the aircraft (Type, Mk, Serial, Engine Type & Nos.) and extent of damage.
Page 2 has a full crew list with position on the a/c, name & initials, rank, service number, result to personnel and the pilot & 2nd pilot hours.
Page 3 gives a description of the accident and any supporting remarks and
Page 4 has remarks by the Unit Commander and Station Commander

So I got very little!

Dave

[Ross_McNeill]

Some of the OTU ORBs contain certified copies of Form 765 and occasionally Form 412.

Comparing the info in the completed Form 765 to the corresponding Form 1180 shows that a number of items are transcribed faithfully onto the Fprm 1180

>Page 1 gives details of date & time of loss, location, Group, Command, Unit, nature of the flight, time of day and information about the aircraft (Type, Mk, Serial, Engine Type & Nos.) and extent of damage.

This is fully transcribed onto the Form 1180

>Page 2 has a full crew list with position on the a/c, name & initials, rank, service number, result to personnel and the pilot & 2nd pilot hours.

Form 1180 give this in full for captain only but has number of killed and number of injured.

>Page 3 gives a description of the accident and any supporting remarks and

Form 1180 has an abbreviated version but the description of accident is essentially the same

>Page 4 has remarks by the Unit Commander and Station Commander

Form 1180 has these transcribed in full.

>So I got very little!

Looks like AHB has added the detail on accident not fully described on the Form 1180.

In essence the only info on a Form 765c that I cannot derive from other sources is confirmation of full crew and service numbers (but this is not necessary for a solo flight or a single seater loss).

Regards
Ross

[Dave_Richardson]

Hi Ross
Looks like I should have said "I got very little extra". Actually rereading the Form 1180 the info transcribed by the AHB is on there. I think the problem I had was that not having seen an AM 765 I was hoping that it would shed some light on the final minutes of my uncle's flight. According to M.J.F. Bowyer the aircraft was fired on and shot down by British AA guns as it presumably passed over Plymouth. I subsequently raised this with the AHB and they have no record of this happening.

Dave

[Ross_McNeill]

Regarding access to the Form 1180 raised by Dave Cullen.

I have found two ways to view bulk Form 1180.

1. Visit Hendon DoRIS. You have to book as the reading room is better described as the desk in the reading broom cupboard. You will be given access to the microfilm reels to spool through at your own speed. The microfilm reader is linked to a laser printer but more than a few copies can soon mount up in cost.

2. Hendon will supply a copy of a complete microfilm reel to order. Takes a few months but typically they are £25 per reel (price is on actual length) postage etc extra. They are 16mm but most public library have a microfilm reader that you can use saving the time and expense of trips to Hendon.

A couple of comments on the reels.
They are in year order and contain several type of aircraft. It may be that the particular type is also split over two or more sequential reels.

eg Reel 16-20

Covers 1941
Battle
Beaufighter (some misfiled other types included)
Beaufort
Blenheim up to 30/4/41

I've had some indication from DoRIS that they may provide CD/DVD instead of microfilm but it is on a complete reel basis and have not given any indication of cost other that that it would be per image.

As a market test I have a couple of reels that DoRIS supplied to me being converted by a commercial company. The quoted rate is:
To scan 16mm microfilm reels at 200dpi, jpeg images – 2.5p per image.
CD/DVD - £5.00 each.

Until the pilot is done I cannot say the total cost per reel.

Regards
Ross

[namrondooh]

Thank you all for this very interesting and extremely useful information. I have certainly learnt a great deal more then I hitherto knew about researching crashed, damaged and written off aircraft.

Norman

[david cullen]

Very helpful the kind of information that could save one alot of time. Thanks.

[david cullen]

Someone (was it Dennis?) said ...
'The Form 765 is a larger, depending on the format, two to four page, with all crew listed by initials and service numbers, a little more detail on the aircraft and flight and then typed up synopsis of the incident and statements of reasons/blame/findings from commanding officers.'

I apologise if I mistook this for a board of enquiry. This element (AM1180) for Spitfire EN180 was abbreviated to about half a dozen acronyms.

Sounds like the AM1180, pretty much covers what 765 does at the AHB.

As I say in wartime the enquiry is usually necessarily brief (maybe there are exceptions).

But close relatives only I gather can access the 765's.
So what has been said on here (thankyou folks) is that there is no evidence (here at least) of anything more detailed than is given on the AM1180, on the 765, but that presumably doesn't rule out the possibility of finding something more.

Dave

[dennis_burke]

I prefer the 765 if I can get my hands on it since its typed and most important for me and irish Crashes is the full crew are listed. I've seen the example of the Form 1180 and Form 765 for a crash this week and they contain different details, the 1180 in this case containing more information. I've another F765s that has an appended eye witness count, lots of variations. So yes ok, if you can get your hands on the 1180 I suppose your ok unless you would like the full crew list ....... there are benefits and none depending on what your after.

[david cullen]

Thanks Dennis.
I've contacted RAF Hendon for a session in the said cupboard.
If not I'm a bit stuck,
putting it mildly.
Dave

[Ross_McNeill]

Hi Gents,

>As a market test I have a couple of reels that DoRIS supplied to me being converted by a commercial company. The quoted rate is:
To scan 16mm microfilm reels at 200dpi, jpeg images – 2.5p per image.
CD/DVD - £5.00 each.

Until the pilot is done I cannot say the total cost per reel.<

Got my converted reels of 16mm AM1180s back from the company.

Works out approx 1900 images per reel so about £47.50.

So DVD from DoRIS should be just over double the microfilm cost.
DVD is in positive form and at 200 dpi zoom to 500% is still readable to decypher the handwritten text.

I suspect that ease of access will lead me to convert all my present and future microfilm to DVD image but against this with microfilm I do not to worry about each new computer OS will eliminate support for the photo image access/display on disk.

Regards
Ross

[paulmcmillan]

Ross

You said

"I do not to worry about each new computer OS "

I take it you mean you do worry about OS upgrades meaning that in the future jpeg will be unreadable? I would not worry that much.. Of course with computer technology things always improve but someone always writes a converter to the lastest format. Of course you have to spend time converting. However. I have converted all my JPEGs to PDF format as I feel this will be around a long long time

Paul

[Ross_McNeill]

Hi Paul,

Not worried about the jpeg format rather the means of storage.

I'm going to show my age now as over the years I've used the following for storage of records associated with aircraft.

Magnetic Tape Reel (Kent PDP 8 and 11s)
Magnetic Platter Disk
8" Floppy
5 1/4" floppy
Audio magnetic cassette tape
3 1/2" floppy
ZIP tape
CD
DVD
USB1 and USB2 Flash disk
Memory cards
External drives up to the max partition size of current Operating Systems.

I have transcriptions of files that were done less than 10 years ago eg 2002 that are on 3.5" floppy but none of my current computers have a drive capable of reading the files.

I need to add an external drive to access the files. Once read I can display them as legacy files but it's that initial step of reading them that is the hurdle. As support stops for a particular storage format so does the update of drivers for the current O/S and after a few cycles of upgrade versions the unsupported driver is not tested with updates and corruption starts.

Take a look about your old backup file box and see how much you stored at the time can be loaded into your current computer now.

Against all this the microfilm reader has continued to display all films/fische bought or created from the 1970s to date regardless of age of storage media and no periodic upgrade of hardware.

8 track, Betamax, cassette, video all storage media that in recent memory have died as support for the player format has been commercially withdrawn.

Regards
Ross

[paulmcmillan]

Ross

I understand your problem now.. All my files fit with 100 GB and are on my laptop and backed up to external drive. I have no Data floppy disks, CD's DVD's in the house anymore!

I think the way forward will to be store them on the "Cloud" and let someone else with more resources (which I accept you will have to pay for) to worry about the storage. However, you can get some storage for free!

Paul

[namrondooh]

What do these mean on the front left side of the form 1180?

IM/P - all three letters written.

A OC - first letter printed, last two letters written
P CN - ditto
E OK - ditto
U OK - ditto
A IF - ditto
X OK - ditto
W IA - dtto

Norman

[david cullen]

Sorry Ross.
So the AM 1180 reels are about £25 each. Take a couple of months to arrive.
The conversion to DVD/CD is 'about' £47.50.
ballpark total therfore =£72.50/reel approx.
Is this right?

Dave

[Ross_McNeill]

Hi David,

I was trying to get a handle on what a commercial rate for duplication of a reel if DoRIS was to go down this route but without having to commit to an order with them to find out.

So Microfilm reel of approx 1900 images eg 800 cards (double sided) is about £25 (actual DoRIS cost)
DVD disk of reel, original owned and retained by DoRIS of approx 1900 images is about £50 (estimated DoRIS cost if competitve rates used)

You would need to contact DoRIS to get their costs but if it comes to more than £75 for DVD then it's worth buying Mircofilm from them and converting yoursef.

Regards
Ross

[david cullen]

Sorry, yes I had not seen it in that vein.
Useful if one is conducting a survey of types or regions I suspect.
Without putting a finer point on things the comprehensiveness of the Hendon cards is compomised I was told to some degree by thefts from the archives in the 70s & 80s.
Cant recall where I heard this but I wonder if these gaps represent a significant proportion of the original collection?
Dave

[Errol Martyn]

Out of curiosity, how many AM1180 reels are there all told?

Errol

[Oldduffer]

I seem to recall that there are about 140 or so.

The records up to about 1962 are by type within date and some types run over the end of a reel onto the next.

From about 1963, it seems as though the remaining tapes are ordered by aircraft type and these run up to about 1975 or so.

The Forms change in size and layout at various stages and, for example, some of the more recent cards are A4 sized with most of the really useful data shown on the front.

I have had difficulties with the readability of some cards because of the microfilming process and there are inexplicable gaps eg fatal Spitfires in circa 1945, Hastings for several years (not too many cards - thank goodness).

The thing I can guarantee is that the staff at DORIS have always been most helpful and supportive, even when I'm behaving like a complete numpty!

[Ross_McNeill]

David - All reference materials have limitations and quirks. As you use them you get a feel for what typically you will get from them.

In the case of Form 1180

Completeness.
Most missing cards are limited to certain aircraft types and date subsets within those types. As Colin says Spitfire and Hastings are two examples. The cards went missing before they were copied into the Originals at AHB and microfilm at RAFM.

Some cards that modern researchers have listed as missing were never raised since the accident details were added to another card of a diferent type. Typically this is fighter liason air to air. Eg Master target tug struck by Hurricane. The details of the Hurricane were orginally entered on the Form 1180 for the Master and the full card archived in the Master section with ro redirect in the Hurricane cards.

A number of cards were misfiled in a different location before the microfilming was done. At the moment I'm looking at a Tiger Moth out of date sequence in the Magister list. I've come across quite a few of these over the years created by the original drop search method for the card stacks.

In 1941 the card was changed to have perforated edges. The perforation relating to date, command, cause, etc printed onto the card was ripped open to the edge leaving alternatives whole.

When a query was run of all accidents in 1942, No.10 Group, Cat AC with fire in the air the complete record card stacks would have a long rod passed through the holes relating to the questions posed. Once all the question rod were installed the entire card stack would be picked up by the rods and shaken. Cards with the perforation edges whole would be retained by the rods, those with the edge ripped open eg query match, would drop out of the stack.

After a drop the cards would be manually put back into the stack. The attraction of card drop sort methods is that it will always find a match card even if it is misfiled in the stack.

As a result audits to manually correct misfiled cards were not usually done.

There is no other record set in any other form that records accidents Cat A to Cat E for RAF serial aircraft damaged over friendly/allied held territory. In this sense the Form 1180 cards are the most complete that you will find.

Limitations
Opertional losses over enemy territory or any loss over the sea where the aircraft was not recovered are not recorded.

As Colin notes the handwritten cards can be difficult to read at times but magnification by either microfilm reader or image display software can go a long way to combat this.

Only Captain listed but in most cases a note is given of number of killed and injured in the accident.

Missing Card compensation
Some missing cards can be pieced together from ORBs, Police Occurance Reports, ARP Reports, Army War Diaries etc. Another source of confirming unit and date is the Form 78 Aircraft Movement card also held at Hendon.

As you said Dave - you have exhausted all other sources so the Form 1180 seems to be the only route left so why discount it because you have heard a few cards are missing.

Regards
Ross

[Errol Martyn]

Thanks Gents.

I've learned quite a lot more about 1180s during the interesting discussion on this thread.

Errol

[david cullen]

Hi Ross.
Absolutely I agree I was reiterating a comment I heard from a member of staff there years ago.
It was the other Dave I think to whom you were refering in the contect of exhausted sources.

Hendon will find or provide an index to types/reel locations.

Getting them on-line is another job of work.
Its nice to know whats where, currently and how they can be obtained at what price en-masse
so many thanks,
Dave

[namrondooh]

Hello,

Please could a F1180 expert take a look at 'post 20', thank you.

Norman

[Ross_McNeill]

Hi Norman,

They are a shorthand series of reporting codes for all the different types of accident and contributing causes.

eg LH - Landing, Heavy
AB - abnormal
E - engine

There is much debate about what they actually stand for but until the AP listing the original letters verus text is found any answer will always be conjecture (the obove are my interpretation).

Cause and aircraft types were also given letter/number codes

If you have the 1180 text then there should be nothing new in the sequence.

Prior to 1941 they seem to have been the index system for the cards and transcribed onto a seperate summary document. Sequential numbers ate given to Fatal and Injury accidents. Post 1941 the drop rod system has taken over but a reduced code subset is still recorded on the cards.

Regards
Ross

[namrondooh]

Many thanks Ross

[Oldduffer]

The process of sticking a 'knitting needle' through the stack of cards was called the 'Optical Coincidence System' and it worked very successfully to highlight cards which met or did not a particular requirement. After that, one was able to use the initial results for further investigation.

When I worked at the Director of Flight Safety (DFS(RAF)), as it was then called, I was part of the initial design team which set about computerising the existing manual system into something fit for the 20th century. The resulting system was called PANDORA. It has served the armed forces, in several iterations, very well and allowed more detailed analysis of accidents and incidents to be undertaken.

[Ross_McNeill]

Coo..

Wing Commander Spry's apprentice...

Any guidance where to look for the breakdown of some of the edge codes Colin?

eg Engine
ALL PS
PC
PH
PP
PM
G
D
M

Regards
Ross

[robstitt]

Ross:
Looked for patterns on all the Fortress AM Form 1180s re ENGINES and the stated cause but couldn't find one. In fact one aircraft that was completely lost has 'All Eng' notched - makes sense - but then so does another when only one engine failed in flight. I suspect that if one looked at enough Form 1180s a pattern might emerge but I also suspect that they were not used consistently.
Regards:
Robert

[Oldduffer]

Ross,

Not exactly Wing Commander Spry's apprentice - he worked in the next office. However, when I was 'up the jungle' on a remote airstrip in south east Asia, I worked for the late Squadron Leader Tony Spry - who was always being teased about being demoted and sent to the Far East as a punishment etc.

Tony was a Hastings sqn flight commander in another incarnation and was the last guy to fly TG577 before it was lost in the dreadful accident at Abingdon.

Returning to the Thread, my memory is a complete blank on what the codes meant and in the years since I have been using the cards regularly, I have not had cause to use these codes or refresh my memory on what they mean. Sorry

Colin Cummings

[Ross_McNeill]

Cheers Colin,

Amazing how the Hastings accident keeps coming into memory. One of the labourers on my site was of traveller stock and his childhood memories are all fixed as x years before/after the paratrooper crash and not cropping seasons as normal. His family lived about a mile from the crash site.

Might as well use this thread to open up discussions on the reporting codes.

In a similar manner to Colin I usually ignore the reporting codes and read the narrative on the cards,

I stress that this is my understanding and not any offical list.

Looking at the groups first, a full code report comprises of 8 groups

xxxxx Axxxx Pxxxx Exxxx Uxxxx Axxxx Xxxxx Wxxxxx

1st Group relates to Stage of flight and first letter can be from L, T, O, F, I, M, FS
2nd Group starting with A is either Type of investigation or denotes a class of accident
3rd Group starting with P is pilot
4th Group starting with E is engine
5th Group starting with U is undercarriage
6th Group starting with A is Airframe
7th Group starting with X is external influences
8th Group starting with W is weather

So taking 1st Group we have
L - Landing stage
T- Taxy stage
O- Take Off stage
F - Flight stage
I - Instrument stage (but I have seen glider accidents in first 60' so possibly I-Initial climb as well)
M - Miscellaneous stage
FS - Force landing is Sea

I'm fairly confident of the first letters of the groups.
The next letters in each group are the ones open to more debate

Regards
Ross

[Ross_McNeill]

This is a list of codes I'm fairly happy with.

I'll trawl through a batch of 1180s in the next few hours to add to this

Once again
L - Landing stage
T- Taxy stage
O- Take Off stage
F - Flight stage
I - Instrument stage (but I have seen glider accidents in first 60' so possibly I-Initial climb as well)
M - Miscellaneous stage
FS - Force landing in sea

LBG - Landing, bad ground
LCO - Landing, collision with object/obstruction
LH - Landing, Heavy
LM- Landing, Miscellaneous
LO -Landing, Overshoot
LOCO - Landing, Overshoot collision with object/obstruction eg boundary fence
LS - Landing, swung
LU - Landing, Undershoot
LUC - Landing, undercarriage collapse

TBG - Taxy, into bad ground
TCO - Taxy, collision, obstruction
TM - Taxy, miscellaneous

OE - Take Off, engine failure
OM - Take Off, miscellaneous
OOC - Take Off, loss of control
OS - Take Off, swumg

FB- Flight, breakdown? (leading to forced landing)
FM - Fllght, miscellaneous
FS - Flight, force landed in sea

ILCG - Instrument, loss of control, collision with ground
ILCO - Instrument, loss of control, collision with object/obstruction eg wires
IM - Instrument, miscellaneous
ILOC - Instrument, loss of control eg spin
ILOS - Instrument, loss of control eg stall

As you can see sometimes there is very little difference in the codes eg swing versus loss of control so attributing cause was not an exact science.

Regards
Ross

[Resmoroh]

Ross,
Re yr post #36.
What sort of details are contained in entries under the 8th Group (Weather) on the 1180's? Just interested in case we are missing a source of info.
But, as was said in some comedy programme, Pilot to Control: "Hello this is XYZ. I am just about to fly into a cliff. The QNH is 1013. The temp is +17C. And the cloud is . . . . . . " Silence.
The fatals can't be interrogated!
Peter Davies

[Ross_McNeill]

Hi Peter,

Not missing much.

WIA- Weather, Icing airframe
WII - Weather, Icing, snow showers
WM- Weather Hail/Poor
WOK - Weather, not a factor
WUJ - Weather, mist patches
WWC - Weather, Wind Crosswind
WWG - Weather, Wind Gusting
WWM- Weather, Bumpy conditions
WVC - Weather, Very Cloudy
WVF- Weather Very Foggy
WVG- Weather, Very Gusty
WVJ- Weather, Rain
WVS - Weather, Very Sunny (reflective/dazzled)

Regards
Ross

[Resmoroh]

Ross,
Tks that.
Peter

[Ross_McNeill]

This is the group that caused me the most trouble.

There are relatively few different types

ABOK - not a factor
AOK - not a factor (on later 1180s)

AAF - Airframe fire eg hyraulic lines
ABM - Vibration
ACF - Caught fire on the ground
AOC - Out of control
ANT - Nosed over on landing
AOP - Lost power
ATO - Turned over

Regards
Ross

[dennis_burke]

Probably a silly time of night to resurect this thread,
I am using this key to read some new 1180's I got and they make a lot of sense now. Thanks

Under the Groups
FB
ABOK
POK Pilot was OK in this case
E T PS PM I I assume some of this relatse to petrol shortage
U OK/B Undercarriage was OK, in wasn't lowered!
A OK - Airframe ok, in so much as the rad was torn off the bottom of the Hurricane in a belly landing
X GA or GR XCR ????
W VF weather was cloudy, foggy 10/10 cloud

Hurricane PZ774 1402 Flight 1945

[Mark Hood]

The process of sticking a 'knitting needle' through the stack of cards was called the 'Optical Coincidence System' and it worked very successfully to highlight cards which met or did not a particular requirement. After that, one was able to use the initial results for further investigation.

When I worked at the Director of Flight Safety (DFS(RAF)), as it was then called, I was part of the initial design team which set about computerising the existing manual system into something fit for the 20th century. The resulting system was called PANDORA. It has served the armed forces, in several iterations, very well and allowed more detailed analysis of accidents and incidents to be undertaken.

Hello Colin, Ross and All

In 1940 the details compiled on the A.M. 1180 were then used by the S.4 Statistics Branch to produce a Monthly Table of RAF Flying Accidents under various "Cause" groupings down the table side, per (by) Operations / Training / Other / Fighter / Bomber / Command / Night / Day / etc., across the top of the table. The monthly tables were then filed with an accompanying Monthly Review of RAF Flying Accidents into a volume known as SD 96 (released in the mid 1990 decade) which are in AIR 10 & AIR 20 for WW 2, highlighting some of the problems for attention. Both the Tables and the Monthly Reviews survive for early WW 2, but only the Monthly analysis Tables survive for the rest of the war.

Epidemic accidents of the same type were then put forward for "Ad-hoc Investigations", or special attention.

I asked the AHB where the A.M. 1180s came from during my research into a selection of the 1940 Accident Cards I photocopied at the RAF Museum and as far as the AHB could say, it was believed the Accident Cards were passed to them from the RAF "Safety Branch", which sounds like where you worked.

Colin and Ross, thanks for the research, which you conducted for your various books.

Regards Mark

[Mark Hood]

Dave
...

"I emailed them for details of my uncle's aircraft. I'd previously been told that they very rarely send out copies of the AM 765" ... "Here's what I got in response:"

"I can confirm that we hold a copy of the F765c" ...

“The aircraft was returning from a mining operation and from the accounts of the other aircraft in the area it is likely that this was the one heavily engaged by to [2?] ground defences and probably damaged. Return would therefore be made at low level and it would appear that allowance was not made for rising ground, up to 600’, in the area where landfall was made”
...

Dave


Hello Dave

Hope you don't mind, but I have extracted parts of your quote above.

Oh wait a minute, I think the AHB have inadvertantly answered your friendly fire question.

Dave you stated that:-
i) the AHB say the aircraft involving your Uncle has a 765c.
ii) that the AHB also say the aircraft was engaged by ground defences and probably damaged.

They cannot be enemy defences! Because a 765c was completed when "Not Attributable to Enemy Action".

If you did see the original 765c complete, you may find that it has a little more info and/or was suggesting a Court of Inquiry?

If it was Plymouth it sounds like the aircraft was engaged by our Naval ship, or our shore defences, lost height and hit the rising coastal ground.

Mark

[Mark Hood]

Coo..

eg Engine
ALL PS
PC
PH
PP
PM
G
D
M

Regards
Ross

Hello Ross

I have mentioned this online somewhere before, which you may already have seen. A fair amount of the information collated on WW2 RAF Flying Accident Cards was then added up each month and then laid out on Monthly Statistical Tables in SD 96 (now at TNA, Kew with some copies at the RAF Museum) of columns and rows on fold out pages and from these Monthly tables it is possible to work out some of the lettering/numbering used in early WW2 and into 1941 at least and possibly some other lettering used later in WW2.

Monthly RAF Statistical Tabulated Reports by S.4 are in:-

See AIR 10/3913 Statistical Reports on Flying Accidents 1940 - 1943 AP No. SD96.
See AIR 20/12269 Statistical Reports on RAF Flying Accidents 1939 - 1942 SD 96

When I told the RAF Museum on a visit to their Archives two years ago, that I was able to work out the 1940 AM 1180 Accident Cards pretty much from the Monthly tables in SD 96, they said, oh we have some copies of SD 96 too.

In AHB correspondence several years ago, they happened to mention that the Accident Cards were used to analyse accidents by a Safety Branch, so I thought that there must be some Monthly, Quarterly analysis somewhere at Kew. Especially once I discovered "No Report in S.4" written on one of the AM1180s, I knew immediately that, S.4 was the Air Ministry Accident Statistics Branch and P.4 was the Accident "Personal" Branch, as I had seen other references to S.4 in AIR 2 files and P.4 in relation to personal papers about my Grandfather's crash.

I PM'd you regarding a Group file copy of something else, some weeks ago, but not heard yet.
Regards Mark

[CZ_RAF]

Hi all,

many thanks to Ross for excellent help with decoding of codes of which I has no clue what they stand for.
I was able to decode 7 of 8 groups - the only mystery is the group for Pilot - I have "PSS" on my card - anyone has an idea what it means?

TIA

Pavel

[CZ_RAF]

Hi all, I would like to make this thread actual again as I am still not able to decode the last group of three letters at A.M. 1180 - the group covering the Pilot's part in the accident.
Particularly I am interested in "PSS" - anyone has an idea what it means?

TIA

Pavel