Canadian publication of casualties

[78SqnHistory]

Is anyone aware of a Canadian book which gives details of the circumstances of the loss of aircrew. I am in touch with the son of a Canadian pilot who was shot down whilst serving with 78 Sqn and the family history states that he was lost whilst conducting a low level attack of German gun positions, apparently this information came from the aforementioned book.

Thanks in advance

Daz

[jossleclercq]

Hello Daz

I think the book should be "They shall grow not old" by Les Allison.

http://www.airmuseum.ca/membook1.html

Joss

[78SqnHistory]

Joss

many thanks

Daz

[Bill Walker]

While this is a good book, Les Allison has told me in a phone conversation that there are quite a few typos in it, that the publishers do not want to (or can't afford to) correct. The late Henk Welting worked up a fairly good list of corrections, and sent me and a few other people a copy before he passed away. Let me know more details about your Canadian pilot (name and date of death) and I will check to see if there are corrections.

[78SqnHistory]

Bill
that is very kind of you, the chap concerned is George Henry Stratford serving with 78 Sqn and killed returning from a night raid on Acquet V1 site on 19 Jul 44, it was his 4th op with 78 Sqn having completed 16 ops with 76 Sqn.

thanks again

Daz

[Bill Walker]

Hi Daz;

Couldn't find your man in Henk's lists, which suggests Henk didn't find any errors in the books entry on him.

[78SqnHistory]

Bill

thanks for looking, I agree that the date and place of loss are correct also the place of burial, my concern is with the circumstances of the loss. I cant see a Halifax attacking German defensive positions at low level in the dark. Stratford's son believes that the crew carried out a low level machine gun attack after receiving a request for help from British ground troops and that the crew were hit by light flak and being too low to bale out they all perished in the subsequent crash. He doesn't know the source of this information.

Regards
Daz

[Steve Smith]

Daz,

Hope you are well mate.

It is possible, two skippers on 218 squadron are famous for it, S/Ldr Geoff Rothwell DFC and squadron Leader waldo Hiles DSO DFC. Hile's was known for his low level exploits, trains and car's were his speciality, all at night. !

Regards

Steve..

[78SqnHistory]

Steve

I'm fine mate thanks. The bit that confuses me is that the family were told this story by an unknown source yet I can find no evidence to support it, there is no mention in the Sqn ORB or the Stn ORB, were the 218 Sqn attacks officially recorded? It is also family history that the crew had a discussion on making the attack or not and they all decided to do it, my question would be if they all died how does anyone know that they had some sort of mid air Chinese parliament. My second reason for questioning it is the piece about receiving a distress call from ground troops. How would the ground troops know what frequency the bomber stream were on? Perhaps the crews had been given frequencies of ground troops in case they were coming down unexpectedly in Allied occupied territory? If its true its amazing and very sad that the crew all perished on their way home trying to attack German positions with just the guns of both turrets.

Hope this finds you well.

Daz

[dannybou]

According to They Shall Grow Not Old, page 734, it states: " Halifax aircraft missing during low-level operations over Abbeville, France. Six members of the crew missing believed killed. Warrant Officer Pilot Stratford is buried in the Somme Cemetery, Neuf Molin, France."

There actually are two addendums that came out to make corrections to the book.

Maybe more information would be available in this airman's service file.

Danny

[78SqnHistory]

Danny

I think that the error has come due to the fact that 78 Sqn carried out two operations on the same day, one an early morning low level attack (crews bombing from heights of between 6,000 and 7,500 Ft) and the second a night attack against a V1 flying bomb site (crews bombing at heights of between 11,000 and 12,500 Ft). The purpose of the first raid was to relieve pressure on advancing ground forces and was against German Army positions, the family story may well have been corrupted over time and it is possible I suppose that the crew having bombed at 6000 feet decided to let rip with the guns as they went past to aid the attacking ground forces.
Bill Chorley doesn't list a cause for the loss during the Acquet raid in BCL.

Regards
Daz

[dannybou]

Hi Daz

Family lore certainly has its merit... as long as it can be proven. Looks like you have done your investigation well. Last piece would be to view the service file and see what is in it. You may be lucky enough to view the C.O.'s letter to the family and a brief narration of the mission from other crews.

Danny

[78SqnHistory]

Danny

His service file is with the RAF as he was due to transfer and get his commission with the RCAF when his tour with 78 Sqn ended. From experience any request to the RAF as non next of kin reveals very little, all they provide is a transcript of movements and promotions. I have told his son how he can apply and perhaps he will get the full record, but until then I guess Im stuck.

Daz

[dannybou]

Really too bad that the UK privacy laws are that strict... even if KIA files are involved.

Danny

[Steve Smith]

Steve

I'm fine mate thanks. The bit that confuses me is that the family were told this story by an unknown source yet I can find no evidence to support it, there is no mention in the Sqn ORB or the Stn ORB, were the 218 Sqn attacks officially recorded? It is also family history that the crew had a discussion on making the attack or not and they all decided to do it, my question would be if they all died how does anyone know that they had some sort of mid air Chinese parliament. My second reason for questioning it is the piece about receiving a distress call from ground troops. How would the ground troops know what frequency the bomber stream were on? Perhaps the crews had been given frequencies of ground troops in case they were coming down unexpectedly in Allied occupied territory? If its true its amazing and very sad that the crew all perished on their way home trying to attack German positions with just the guns of both turrets.

Hope this finds you well.

Daz

Hi Daz,

Sorry for the delay in replying.

Yes their exploits were recorded in both the Form 540/541 and the station records book. Squadron Leader Hiles DSO DFC was notorious on the squadron for taking every opportunity to attack ground targets. No.3 Group did experiment in 1942/3 with flying low level to targets in an attempt to confuse the defences, I am not sure if this would have applied to the Halifax squadrons of No.4 Group. Squadron Leader Geoff Rothwell DFC hit an electrical pylon, there are a number of instances on the squadron where crews are recorded for going down low and straffing targets of opportunity.

All the best mate

Smudge