159 Sqn Liberators 1945 - a couple of questions

[wwrsimon]

Hello everyone

I've been looking through the Squadron Appendices for number 159 Sqn, and came across a couple of things I'm curious about.

Firstly, on 17 January 1945, the Battle Orders for that day state that the Liberators were loaded with a bomb load of "8 x 1000lb G.P. L.D" - G.P. is General Purpose, but what might "L.D." mean? It's not the greatest photocopy, but I'm 95% sure that's what it says.

Secondly, the ammunition loads are noted for each aircraft, and most of them on that day were loaded with 1000 rounds of 0.5 inch for the rear turret only. Would the other five gun positions (nose, upper, ball and waist x 2) normally be unarmed and thus without guns? Two other aircraft are noted as having an additional 500 rounds of ammunition for the nose turret. The crew consisted of seven crewmen, so would this indicate the two waist gunners and the ball turret gunner missing from a normal complement of ten crew? I understand that the ball turrets were removed from 159 Sqn Liberators to save weight at some stage.

Many thanks.

Regards

Simon

[colinpateman]

Simon.
My understanding is that weight reduction was of utmost importance as they were still operating from India. The lack of Japanese fighters reduced the need to carry large loads of ammunition and the latewr Mk VIII Liberators used more fuel requiring greater weight savings. This forum has far greater people well knowledged in Far East Liberators I suspect you will get a more detailed report than my effort. Colin.

[wwrsimon]

Many thanks for the reply Colin. I'd thought that may have been the case - it just seemed odd to me to only have the tail turret armed though.

Regards

Simon

[wwrsimon]

Just been doing a bit of Googling about the 1000lb bombs, and would 'L.D.' stand for Low Drag?

Regards

Simon

[Richard.K]

Hello Simon. I think you will find that LD means "long delay".

Richard

[wwrsimon]

Aha, thank you Richard, I'd not thought of that!

Regards

Simon

[Matt Poole]

Hi, Simon,

I'm also guessing that Long Delay is the meaning of LD.

The 159 Sqn ORB is hit-or-miss, with errors, and the details post-raid Sortie Report is missing from the Appendices. The one-page Form 540 op summary for the daylight 18 Jan '45 action gives bomb loads much different from the pre-op Battle Order dated 17 Jan '45, from which you quoted.

From the Form 540 summary:

17 + 1,000 GPTD 14 secs. [TD = “Time Delay”, which was 14 seconds?]
6 + 500 Inc. (M76) NITI.

The above figures imply a ridiculous, impossible payload of 20,000 pounds per aircraft! Oops...typos by a bored clerk!

From the Battle Order:

13 Libs carried 8 X 1,000 GPLD
3 Libs carried 6 X 1,000 GP [I][then unclear…probably LD]
2 Libs (“G” and “U”) carried ?? [next-to-impossible to read, but not a typical bomb load.]

“G” and “U” also carried twin 0.50 guns, 500 rounds of ammo, and a Nose Gunner (an eighth crewman). The fourteen other Libs carried a crew of seven men, no nose guns, and no ammo for these. The seven crew positions:

Pilot
2nd Pilot
Nav
Bomb Aimer
Wireless Op
Flight Eng.
Rear Gunner.

All sixteen Libs were Mk VI models.

As C.O. of 159 Sqn for the second half of 1944, W/Cdr James Blackburn revolutionized the use of the Liberator in a theatre where the targets were so far away. He significantly upped the bomb tonnage carried not just by reducing weight (less crewmen, less guns, less ammo) but by changing the manner in which the Libs were flown to and from the target.

The Japanese fighter threat was almost non-existent in early ‘45. I’m sure crewmen grumbled about the lack of gunners, though!

Regards,

Matt

[wwrsimon]

Thanks for that info Matt.

The other query I have is about the removal of the ball turrret. Was it just removed from its mounting, and the mounting left it place and the aperture left open? Or would it have been plated over outside, or blocked up from the inside of the aircraft? I'd guess it would have to have been sealed up, otherwise it'd be a bit draughty to say the least, and indeed wet in the rainy season! However I've seen photos of some SEAC Liberators in flight with what appears to be just an empty aperture where the ball turret was.

My specific interest is in KH408 "Lady X", by the way.

Regards

Simon

[Matt Poole]

Hi, Simon,

I'd have to pore over the 159 Sqn ORB, but I don't think they ever flew with a ball turret installed. At least it is my guess that the turret itself was completely removed from all 159 Sqn Libs. Not sure about all the support structure inside the fuselage, though.

Other RAF Lib squadrons did fly with the ball turret, and a gunner manning it. Not sure how widespread the turret's usage was, though.

I would think that it was standard to cover the hole with a plug, for aerodynamic, and safety, concerns, being in the floor of the aircraft. The same kind of faring would have been used where the mid-upper turret was removed.

However, it's certainly possible that if the faring was not created yet, a Lib flew with a hole -- dangerous, and an aerodynamic drag, but the Lib would still fly. And the beam gun windows were always open in flight, until the late-model Libs plexiglassed them over.

About five years ago Malaysian searchers with whom I worked closely in the investigation of 357 Sqn (Special Duties) Liberator KH326's loss (6 June 1945) discovered a fuselage turret faring among the wreckage, in dense jungle. The faring was marked with a message: "NO STEP". We don't know if this faring was for the removed mid-upper turret or the removed (or never-installed) ball turret.

Sorry I don't have more answers.

Cheers,

Matt

[wwrsimon]

Hi Matt

Many thanks once again for the further information.

Apologies if this seems a daft proposition, but was it possible to tell whether the turret fairing that was found in the wreck of KH326 had "No Step" on the outside or inside surface? Inside might suggest it was for the ball turret, outside might suggest the upper turret - not 100% conclusive I know, but a possibility. From the photo online it's impossible to tell:

http://mhg.mymalaya.com/b-24_kh326.htm

Regards

Simon

[Matt Poole]

Hi, Simon,

Good snooping on your part! That's the fairing. Or at least that's what my friends decided it was. Makes sense, for the most part...but, if so, was it covering up the hole from the mid-upper turret or the ball turret?? I just don't know.

Now, I really must better clarify my thoughts on the NO STEP piece. This aluminium might be a fairing fitted to cover one of two round openings in the fuselage where a gun turret had been removed -- but there is no scale for measuring the diameter of the object. And, honestly, we are guessing that the wording was NO STEP, because the "EP" is not obvious. Come to think of it, neither the top nor the bottom of the fuselage is flat, so a fairing should have been shaped to the curve of the fuselage -- I think. Or, if its associated with the ball turret, was this a separate flat piece positioned directly above a more curvalinear fairing? I can't tell from the one image of the NO STEP piece whether there was curvature.

One day my Malaysian friends will be able to return, and with luck they will rediscover this particular piece. I'd love a measurement and further photos. They only had three hours on-site due to the extremely difficult slog through dense jungle to get there.

Cheers,

Matt

[Matt Poole]

One more bit about ball turret usage on 159 Sqn. I found this in something I'd written about the op of 29 Feb 1944:

159 Squadron did not utilize the belly ball turret at this time; it was not installed. In fact, the belly turret was not used by 159 on operational flights until late July 1944, and then only for a few ops. After that, the C.O., S/Ldr James Blackburn, called for their removal to save weight, as part of his successful experiment to increase both the bomb load and flying distance of 159's Liberators.

At the moment I can't look up the dates of the ops when turrets were used...too weighed down by other assignments!

Cheers,

Matt

[wwrsimon]

Thanks for that Matt.

I did find reference on Robert Quirk's website to a mission by 159 Squadron's F/O Frank Barrett D.F.C. that held a duration record for a fully loaded Liberator (KH408?) of 18 hours 10 minutes. If it's not too much of an imposition, do you happen to have have anything further on that mission?

Regards

Simon

[Matt Poole]

Hi, Simon,

Except for the actual 159 Sqn ORB entries for that op, I don't have anything else. Will look at home this evening or tomorrow and write you a Private Message. That flight wasn't the longest of all time...18+ hour ops were not out of the ordinary later in the war, thanks to James Blackburn's changes in the way the Lib was flown.

Cheers,

Matt

[wwrsimon]

Thanks Matt, much appreciated.

Regards

Simon

[Matt Poole]

Simon,

Sorry...I forgot to ask you for the date of that 18-plus hour op.

Matt

[Matt Poole]

Simon,

I think you must be referring to 159 Sqn's third mining of Penang on either 23/24 or 24/25 Jan 1945; both dates are in the ORB! Frank Barrett's KH408 "X" was up for 18 hrs 57 min. However, of the 16 Libs on this legendary raid, 11 Libs broke the 18 hour mark, and two were airborne for over 19 hours (19 hrs 35 min and 19 hrs 44 min). Only these last Libs were up for longer than Barrett's aircraft. Avg time aloft per aircraft: 18 hrs 15.4 min.

On the first Penang mining op of 27/28 Oct '44, 10 of 15 Libs were up for over 18 hours. One was aloft for over 19 hours (19 hrs 12 min). (Barrett was not on this op.) Avg time aloft per aircraft: 18 hrs 16.7 min.

On the second Penang mining op of 26/27 Nov '44, 9 of 16 Libs were up for over 18 hours. One was aloft for over 19 hours (19 hrs 15 min). (Barrett was 2nd Pilot on Lib "U", with a flight duration of 18 hrs 06 min.) Avg time aloft per aircraft: 18 hrs 06.6 min.

There may have been other 18-plus hour ops, but I'd have to dig more. And this is just 159 Sqn. I do believe the Penang mining ops of 159 Sqn were the RAF's longest bombing (including mining) missions until the Falkland Islands War. I could use confirmation on that factoid, though.

I'd have to keep looking to see if any of Frank Barrett's other ops were as long as his two trips to Penang.

That's it for the moment.

Cheers,

Matt