Two 27 Sqdn casualties, 13/01/1940, Pakistan

[Bart FM Droog]

What caused the deaths of:

Flight Lieutenant (Pilot) Tony M. Tinker, RAF 34254, 27 Sqdn., age 24, 13/01/1940, Karachi War Cemetery, Pakistan
Sergeant (Air Gnr.) Frederick W. Whyte, RAF 338170 (Australia), 27 Sqdn., age 32, 13/01/1940, Karachi War Cemetery, Pakistan

Regards,

Bart

[Errol Martyn]

Bart,

Chaz Bowyer's history of 27 Sqn, Flying Elephants, records 'Christmas was celebrated...Two weeks after [sic] the celebrations however a tragic note was struck when Sgt. Whyte crashed his Tiger Moth, sustaining fatal injuries. Three days later, on January 16...'

In Appendix 3 he lists under a De Havilland Tiger Moth heading - VT-ALH on loan from Madra Flying Club, Sep 1939, and then five RAF serials (K1778, K1780, K1782, K1783 and K1784), none of which is actually a Tiger Moth! No fates shown against any of these.

No mention of Tinker anywhere in the book.

Errol

[Amrit]

There doesn't seem be any reason for Tomtit serials for 27 Squadron. Jefford doesn't show them as having flown the. Does Bowyer say anything as I am rather intrigued. I thought by that stage they had Wapitis and Harts.

A

[paulmcmillan]

According to www.dehavilland.ukf.net/Amend%20Oct03.rtf

C/N 82583 DH82A VT-ALH Written off 03.02.42


So not that one

[paulmcmillan]

then five RAF serials (K1778, K1780, K1782, K1783 and K1784), none of which is actually a Tiger Moth! No fates shown against any of these.

No mention of Tinker anywhere in the book.

Errol[/QUOTE]

I think these should be from this list:

T1777 DH82A TIGER MOTH impressed in India
T1778 DH82A TIGER MOTH impressed in India
T1779 DH82A TIGER MOTH impressed in India
T1780 DH82A TIGER MOTH impressed in India
T1781 DH82A TIGER MOTH impressed in India
T1782 DH82A TIGER MOTH impressed in India
T1783 DH82A TIGER MOTH impressed in India
T1784 DH82A TIGER MOTH impressed in India

http://www.dehavilland.ukf.net/query.htm

[Alex Smart]

Hello,

What Errol did not mention is that in the center of the book are several photos.

One is of a row of 5 Tiger Moths Caption says "24 FTS Risalpur 1940. A line up of DH Tiger Moths (inc K1778,K1780,K1784, K1782, K1783).".

The interest is that this is exactly what is shown, Aircraft in Silver finnish with serial numbers starting with letter "K".

Alex

[paulmcmillan]

Looks like we have found an example of a painting mistake!!!!

[Bill Walker]

Looks like we have found an example of a painting mistake!!!!

Or the work of a war-time censor?

[Bart FM Droog]

Hello all - and thanks for your contributions. Strange that nowhere F/L Tinker is mentioned. Can anyone think of an explanation for that?

Regards,

Bart

[Errol Martyn]

"T1778 DH82A TIGER MOTH impressed in India" (Paul)

This (T1778 aka K1778) is the one Bart is looking for. From Air-Britain's serials:

T1778 27/SF Risalpur/ITS(O)
Climbed steeply after take-off, stalled and spun into the ground, Kohat, 13.1.40.

Air-Britain's 'RAF Flying Training and Support Units since 1912' records ITS(O) as being:

Initial Training School (Officers); formed by 2.40 at Risalpur until at least 1.41; Fate unknown. Aircraft: Tiger Moth (T1779).

Errol

[paulmcmillan]

Jagan Pillarisetti sent me a scan of a logbook page of an Indian pilot - quote "shows the first page where he started flying training with FTU Risalpur in November 1939 - the very month the recruitment in IAF was thrown open with the onset of war - lists the very same Tiger Moths. all K serialled."

So definately a recording/painting error NOT a censorship issue

We have a photo and logbook that shows that these aircraft had K serials, and the RAF gave them T serials in the historic records

I think over to Air Britain Information Exchange for a view on this.

Also, I wonder if the reason ONLY Whyte is mentioned in 27 Sqn, Flying Elephants is that he (of the two) may of been the ONLY one with 27 Sqn. It appears he may have been training to be a pilot from Air Gunner 'Sgt. Whyte crashed his Tiger Moth'. I wonder in Tinker was the instructor from 24 FTS Risalpur and his rcord on CWGC is wrong

Paul

[Ross_McNeill]

Hi Paul,

The Feb 39 Air Force List gives Tinker as assigned to No.11 (Bomber) Sqn at Risalpur posted in 28 Jan 1938.

Regards
Ross

[Errol Martyn]

Noted that Jefford's entry for 27 Sqn in his 'RAF Squadrons' has:

25 Sep 39 to Risalpur [also home of ITS(O)]
1 Oct 39 unit tasked as an FTS until 21 Oct 40
Oct 39 Tiger Moth (Oct 40)
Oct 39 Hart (Oct 40) dets Kohat, Miranshah
Nov 40 Blenheim IF (Feb 42)
10 Feb 41 unit reverted to operational status

Errol

[paulmcmillan]

BTW Both Tinker and Whyte are listed as KILLED ON ACTIVE SERVICE in the same casualty list. Not 100% evidence I know (both died on same date anyway) but indicates that Tinker is not illness.


Fit. Lt. T. M Tinker (34254).
Sgt. F. W. Whyte (338170).

Also, I wonder if Tinker may have only recently transferred into the unit from 11 Sqn to help with the training tasks when as Errol states '1 Oct 39 unit tasked as an FTS until 21 Oct 40' so may not have been considered to be 'in ' 27 Sqn by those who were in 27 Sqn before the change in tasking (just a thought)

[paulmcmillan]

I asked about these Tiger Moths on AB-IX and Chris Semmens replied as follows


"This photo is also in Air Britain's "RAF Flying Training & Support Units" (new edition) where the mis-painting of these aircraft with K-serials instead of T-serials is commented on.
Later this seems to have been corrected, at least on some aircraft, as photos exist of T1783 and T1784 painted as such, and in service in India. "

[Bart FM Droog]

Hello Paul,

"Tinker may have only recently transferred into the unit from 11 Sqn to help with the training tasks when as Errol states '1 Oct 39 unit tasked as an FTS until 21 Oct 40' so may not have been considered to be 'in ' 27 Sqn by those who were in 27 Sqn before the change in tasking (just a thought)"

This seems the most logical explanation.

Regards,

Bart

[paulmcmillan]

Jim Halley 'of Air Britain Military Serials fame' posted this for me:

"The K-serial Indian Tiger Moths were part of a time-warp. Being used to all
aircraft having K-serials for many years, the depot changed the Ts to Ks during
painting!"

[Henk Welting]

Have an unconfirmed note that they were transporting aircraft parts. Perhaps from Risalpur to Kohat ?
Regards,
Henk.

[paulmcmillan]

Malcolm Fillmore on AB_IX (an expert on all things De Havilland) has come up with the following:

T1777 Toc 10.39 by ITS/27 Squadron, Risalpur. To 5 Sqdn, Risalpur
[3.41]. Accident 21.3.41.

T1778 c/n 82580 ex VT-ALE Toc 10.39 by ITS/27 Squadron, Risalpur.
To Risalpur Station Flight. Spun in & crashed following steep climb on
take-off Kohat 13.1.40 & dbf; Flt Lt Tony M Tinker & Sgt Frederick W
Whyte killed.

T1779 Toc 10.39 by ITS/27 Squadron, Risalpur [9.40]. Crashed on
landing Lahore 30.9.40; repaired. To AHQ India Comm Flt, Delhi [41].
To 224 Group, Bengal [late 42]. To 134 R&SU [8.44]. To 671 Sqdn [45].
To RIAF 30.10.47.

T1780 Toc 10.39 by ITS/27 Squadron, Risalpur.

T1781 Toc 10.39 by ITS/27 Squadron, Risalpur.

T1782 Toc 10.39 by ITS/27 Squadron, Risalpur. To 1 SFTS [6.41].
Crashed & overturned on take-off nr Saharanpur 14.6.41 [collecting pilot
of forced landed Hart K2104]; not repaired.

T1783 Toc 10.39 by ITS/27 Squadron, Risalpur [4.40]. Crashed 26.4.40;
repaired. Crashed 20.12.40; repaired.

T1784 Toc 10.39 by ITS/27 Squadron, Risalpur.

Note: The above eight were impressed to form the initial allocation
to Initial Training Flight, part of 27 Squadron. They were initially
painted as K1777/K1784 [see photo in The Flying Elephants]. One other
was probably ex VT-ALH
"

[chrisgtk]

"T1778 DH82A TIGER MOTH impressed in India" (Paul)

This (T1778 aka K1778) is the one Bart is looking for. From Air-Britain's serials:

T1778 27/SF Risalpur/ITS(O)
Climbed steeply after take-off, stalled and spun into the ground, Kohat, 13.1.40.

Air-Britain's 'RAF Flying Training and Support Units since 1912' records ITS(O) as being:

Initial Training School (Officers); formed by 2.40 at Risalpur until at least 1.41; Fate unknown. Aircraft: Tiger Moth (T1779).

Errol

Tony Tinker is a cousin of mine and I have come across his name during a family search. He is buried in Baramulla Convent Grave in Kashmir and was, according to my records, killed during a training flight with Sergeant Frederick White. These details are printed in an RAF record log which I obtain through Ancestry.com. His father died in France in 1918 who was mentioned in despatches. I am surprised that this thread has no details of Tony Tinker.

Regards, Chris Tinker

[Jagan]

Tony Tinker is a cousin of mine and I have come across his name during a family search. He is buried in Baramulla Convent Grave in Kashmir and was, according to my records, killed during a training flight with Sergeant Frederick White.

Chris, Baramula (Kashmir) is quite far from Kohat (where this crash happened) and it appears he may have been re-interred at Karachi again.

[paulmcmillan]

I am surprised that this thread has no details of Tony Tinker.

Regards, Chris Tinker

Chris that is because he the mystery part in all this. We suspect he was new on Sqn when he was killed which is why he is not mentioned in the book 27 Sqn, Flying Elephants

We knew he was killed on this date and suspected it was in same incident as Sergeant (Air Gnr.) Frederick W. Whyte but it took a lot of investigation of other sources to confirm this, the movement of body from place of death to a cemetery a long way from the crash site did not help

This web site exists in part to try and solve some of these incidents. Sometimes we only have a name or vague location or in-accurate details (even in official files written at the time) for instance today I have seen an image of an official report involving a crash in May 1940 when one of the service numbers of the crew is wrong.)


Paul

[Jagan]

Chris, Baramula (Kashmir) is quite far from Kohat (where this crash happened) and it appears he may have been re-interred at Karachi again.

An interesting note - Baramula Convent Grave holds only one grave from CWGC. Lt Col Dykes who was killed in October 1947 in the Kashmir fighting . Dykes and his wife were murdered by invading tribesmen at the Convent.

https://www.ft.com/content/ea0995c8-7b7c-11dc-8c53-0000779fd2ac

I do wonder where the info about Tinker being buried there comes from?