357 Sqdn - Dakota IV KN584 - Lost 7 Sept 1945 Meiwang

[COL BRUGGY]

Hello,

HERDMAN.

7-9-1945
No.357 Sqn.
Dakota IV KN584

Missing from Special Duties mission over Burma.

Crew(Alpha order):

1894540 F/Sgt ( - ? - ) Alexander Fraser CALDER RAFVR +
1473480 F/Sgt ( - ? - ) Roy Metcalfe HERDMAN RAFVR +
1565046 F/Sgt ( - ? - ) David McLEMAN RAFVR +
R/131090 WO1 (Capt./Pilot) Harold William SMITH RCAF +

All commemorated on the Singapore Memorial.

Possibly others killed/wounded.

Can't access my copy of TSGNO at the moment. What does Allison have to say?

Col.

[Oldduffer]

In KN584 there were 16 fatal casualties; four crew and the rest Army or RAF pax.

I'm off to walk the dogs just now but will post their details later - did I hear a plaintive woof woof?!

Colin Cummings

[Oldduffer]

This is the info I have on this loss. I have not been able to prove conclusively that these men were all on board and so I am not going to die in a ditch over any different names. Where there is uncertainty, I always try to corroborate the details with information from a different original source - in this case I could not.

07-Sep-45 KN584 Dakota IV 357 Sqn Burma 16
The aircraft was recorded as missing on a day sortie but the cause of its loss was not established.
Warrant Officer Harold William SMITH 23 RCAF
Flight Sergeant Alexander Fraser CALDER 20
Flight Sergeant Roy Metcalfe HERDMAN 22
Flight Sergeant Daniel MCLEMAN
Captain Alan Leslie GOLDSMITH Royal Engineers
Corporal Stanley Harold GOODWIN Royal Engineers
Lieutenant Colonel Edgar James KENNEDY 44 OBE Royal Corps of Signals
Second Lieutenant Samuel McCammont LITTLE 27 General List ex Gordon Highlanders
Sergeant Archibald SMITH RAF HQ 904 Wg
Sergeant Alfred Claude Brenton SOWDEN 27 MM Royal Corps of Signals
Lieutenant Colonel Sydney Isaac WIGGINTON 31 OBE Sherwood Foresters Regiment
RAF passengers believed to be:
Flight Sergeant William Thomas Patrick DAVIES 23
Flight Sergeant Robert NAPIER
Leading Aircraftman Frederick John BRYANT
Flying Officer Bernard HOBART 22 28 Squadron
Flight Sergeant Donald Hugh WILD 28 Squadron

[wwrsimon]

Thank you John and the two Colins for filling in some more gaps.

Regards

Simon

[Roy.Shute]

Have just come across this site.Roy Herdman was killed in this incident. It was his 23rd birthday. He was my uncle, my mother brother, whom I never met.He left home on boxing day 1942 after some leave, never to return. I was only 2 years old at the time of his death. I remember seeing a letter from his C.O to my grandfather (Now lost) offering condolences and giving reason for crash as "the aircraft being knocked out of the sky by a sudden gust of wind whist flying thro' mountains" I suppose we call it "wind shear" now. I have a photograph of the grave but have lost the grave's co-ordinates. I also have 6 of his diaries which he filled in from 1939 when he left home as a 17 year old to work in the ministry of shipping thro' joining up in 1942 and his travels through South Africa, Iraq, India Ceylon, Burma & Thailand until the day before his death on 7th September 1945. I also have a photo' of him with his crew and I suppose their aircraft - date and place unknown.
Roy Shute.

[wwrsimon]

Hello Roy

Thank you for the extra info about Flt Sgt Herdman. He is commemorated on the Singapore Memorial:
http://www.twgpp.org/information.php?id=1441794

Also, he is remembered in three memorials in Northumberland:

Firstly on the Roll of Honour at Bedlington High School:
http://www.newmp.org.uk/detail.php?contentId=6461

Secondly the Royal British Legion in Newbiggin-by-the-Sea Heritage Centre:
http://www.newmp.org.uk/detail.php?contentId=10026

and finally in St Bartholomew's Church in Newbiggin:
http://www.newmp.org.uk/detail.php?contentId=8058

Best regards

Simon

[Imelda Read]

Could anyone one tell me how to find details of the grave of Donald Hugh Wild? He was the brother of my neighbour, and he was killed in a plane crash in Burma 7th September 1945( just after the end of the war) aged 21. Twelve were killed and I think were buried where they died. I do have all the names All my searches so far lead to a memorial in Singapore where DHW's name is on show( and my neighbour has visited this)
My husband and I are visiting Burma soon and if there is any chance of finding this grave we would love to be able to do this. Any help very much appreciated, especially as I am a bit of a novice at thisimeldaread@btinternet.com Many thanks
Imelda Read

[Jagan]

Imelda, how did you find out they were buried? Was there any communication to the family?

They all must be occupants of Dakota IV KN584 that was listed as Missing (Reference: Colin Cummings - Price of Peace) - i dont have it with me so cant confirm if the passenger list is same as below

If they were missing then it is in conflict with your information that they were buried - could you provide details on how you know they were buried?

From Geoff's Search Engine


001 BRYANT FJ 1398164 - 07/09/1945 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
002 CALDER AF 1894540 357 SQDN 07/09/1945 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
003 DAVIES WTP 552842 - 07/09/1945 ROYAL AIR FORCE
004 HERDMAN RM 1473480 357 SQDN 07/09/1945 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
005 HOBART B 171213 28 SQDN 07/09/1945 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
006 MCLEMAN D 1565046 357 SQDN 07/09/1945 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
007 NAPIER R 1054912 - 07/09/1945 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
008 SMITH A 548541 - 07/09/1945 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
009 WILD DH 1583540 28 SQDN 07/09/1945 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE
010 YUSUF BIN CHEMAN - ME/318 - 07/09/1945 ROYAL ARTILLERY

[Jagan]

Thanks Col.

Roy Shute's post (http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?11758-Details-for-these-casualties&p=75559#post75559) that he has seen photo of the grave site answers my question to Imelda on the source behind the grave site..

This must be another case of the RAF knowing where they were buried but commemorating them on the memorial separately.

[Jagan]

From Jim McLeman.






I recall someone looking for information about this plane and as to what happened to it.
The plane hit the side of a mountain while carrying 12 passengers and 4 crew members of which my uncle was the Radio/ Gunner F/Sgt Daniel McLeman. RAFVR # 1565046.

The plane was found a week after it was lost just 10 miles from base. The plane was identified by its tail and personal belongings of one crew member R?M.Herdman. The plane had hit the side of a mountain 6000 ft above sea level and 1000 ft above the Drop Zone.
I am in position of a letter written to my grandmother written by the then S/Leader Terence O,Brien of 357 Sqd on March 13 th 1946 advising my grandmother of the mishap and the location of the original grave site given as 17 deg 53 ft North and 97 deg 17 ft East. I also have original photo,s of the grave site showing the large wooden cross in the middle of a village called Mewaing.

S/ Leader Terence O,Brien in one of his books covers the accident briefly in The Moonlight War page 342 and page 343

The pilot of KN584 was a Canadian by the name of Harold William Smith the son of Harold and Alice of Guelph in Ontario. I have been trying for many years now to locate some family members of Harold W.Smith with no luck. Do you have any idea how I may accomplish this task.

Looking forward to hearing from you or any member of the group.
Regards. Jim McLeman.
Calgary Alberta and Phoenix Arizona

[Matt Poole]

Hi, Jagan,

Thanks for your further info, from Jim.

I just peeked at my copy of The Moonlight War, mentioned by Jim. One slight correction. The crash was said to be 10 miles from the Drop Zone, not from base.

It is almost certain that the wartime street address in Guelph of Harold and Alice Smith will be found in the RCAF personnel files of WO1 R/131090 Harold William Smith, held in the Library and Archives Canada. There will likely be correspondences to and from the next-of-kin, and this could be a big help in finding surviving kin. Of course, with a surname of Smith...

LAC will prepare and mail, for free, a "genealogy packet" of documents culled from Smith's file, though the service takes something like eight months. Would you mention this to Jim? If he can get to Ottawa to study the Smith file himself, he wouldn't have to wait so long, however. I'm not sure -- but once the file is ordered in person, there might be a waiting period of a day before the file can be retrieved from storage and made available for viewing.

It is also likely that there will be some excellent summary details on the fate of the Dakota, from official reports. And on the location of a grave. There might be a grid reference, too -- which, if I learned it, could lead to a fairly precise point on an old map which is going to be better than a general lat/long (which tend to be off!).

I'll provide more details, if Jim is interested.

Cheers,

Matt

[Jim mcLeman]

The mentioned Roy Herdman was lost on Sept 7 th 1945 while on KN584. The plane was found a week after it went missing. The Sqd Leader at the time Terrance O,Brien sent my grandmother a letter which I have a copy of explaining what he thought happened.
The letter dated March 13 th 1946 says the plane hit the side of a mountain 6000 ft above sea level. He says the plane likely hit the side of the mountain whilst flying blind or more likely crashed out of control. The Dakota was identified by its tail unit, Sixteen bodies were accounted for and buried in a communal grave in the village of Mewaing in Burma at
17 degrees 53 feet North and 97 degrees 17 feet east.
On the wooden cross placed at the grave site two pieces of paper were nailed with the names of most of the lost members on the plane which my uncle Daniel McLeman was a Radio Officer.
What I can not understand is why the grave could not be located after the war.
I wrote to the war grave asking about the grave site, they responded "It may be because of further bombing". I am more inclined to believe there was no search carried out account shortage of funds at that point in time as the UK were pretty well broke after the war.
I would very much like to be kept in the loop as far as this particular item is concerned. Jimmcleman@aol.com

[Jim mcLeman]

Please see my note on this site re the place of burial for all 16 members on this flight KN584. The name you shaw as David McLeman should read Daniel McLeman. My uncle. Jimmcleman@aol.com

[Jim mcLeman]

Roy. Can you contact me on my email at. Jimmcleman@aol.com so I can forward you a copy of a letter. Regards. Jim McLeman

[Jim mcLeman]

I have a picture of the original grave site supplied by the War Graves Commission. Nailed to the wooden cross were two pieces of paper. I had the picture enhance professionally which gave me all the names,rank and serial numbers of those lost on flight KN584. They correspond with your name list exactly. I will gladly forward a copy of the picture to you if you wish.
Regards. Jim McLeman

[Mark Hood]

... Sixteen bodies were accounted for and buried in a communal grave in the village of Mewaing in Burma at 17 degrees 53 feet North and 97 degrees 17 feet east.
On the wooden cross placed at the grave site two pieces of paper were nailed with the names of most of the lost members on the plane which my uncle Daniel McLeman was a Radio Officer.
What I can not understand is why the grave could not be located after the war.
I wrote to the war grave asking about the grave site, they responded "It may be because of further bombing". I am more inclined to believe there was no search carried out account shortage of funds at that point in time as the UK were pretty well broke after the war. ...


It is possible that the IWGC now CWGC probably could not / cannot access this place, as there has been trouble in parts of Burma (also known as Myanmar) since the late 1940s? It seems Mewaing was proposed to have/or had Karen leadership. There is a reference to the Karen National Union, also Karen National Liberation Army and various groups on Wikipedia and :- http://robbintalkingpoint.wordpress.com/2008/02/12/fifty-years-of-struggle/ and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_National_Liberation_Army

The Co-ords indicate the crew are buried in Mewaing. A weather satellite picture is obscured by cloud, but there is a fairly extensive layout of fields currently surrounding Mewaing, which looks to be amongst a forested area.

http://announcements.telegraph.co.uk/inmemoriam/39568/davies

I am afraid that we lost members of our family due to the two World Wars, but unfortunately in some areas peace did not prevail, or not for long at least!
Mark

[COL BRUGGY]

Hello,

There is an interesting sidelight to the loss of No.357 Sqn Dakota KN584. S/L Terence O'Brien, OC No.357 Sqn, had this to say:

"We had a fatal crash investigation that month. Air Command decided that a court of enquiry should be held about the loss of our Dakota that had flown into a hillside, and the outcome was that l was found negligent in not ensuring a dinghy was carried on the fatal journey. The track of the aircraft from the drop site to Jessore crossed the corner of the Bay of Bengal, and though the plane never reached the Bay and the absence of a dinghy was irrelevant to the loss, King's Regulations stated that a dinghy should always be carried on water crossings and the court's verdict was that l was officially reprimanded... for contributing towards the deaths of sixteen men in a Dakota crash."

See:
The Moonlight War:The Story of Clandestine Operations in South-East Asia, 1944-5.
O'Brien,Terence
London:Collins,1987
p.346

Col.

[Jim mcLeman]

Were you aware of Any Indian Army Personel lost on KN584 in addition to the 4 crew and 12 passengers. Jim

[sairahkhanner]

Hi! My mum's father was on that plane - Edgar James Kennedy. I would REALLY appreciate a copy of the photo you have of your uncle and his crew as my grandmother would be thrilled to see it. Would you please send me a jpeg? Thanks!




Have just come across this site.Roy Herdman was killed in this incident. It was his 23rd birthday. He was my uncle, my mother brother, whom I never met.He left home on boxing day 1942 after some leave, never to return. I was only 2 years old at the time of his death. I remember seeing a letter from his C.O to my grandfather (Now lost) offering condolences and giving reason for crash as "the aircraft being knocked out of the sky by a sudden gust of wind whist flying thro' mountains" I suppose we call it "wind shear" now. I have a photograph of the grave but have lost the grave's co-ordinates. I also have 6 of his diaries which he filled in from 1939 when he left home as a 17 year old to work in the ministry of shipping thro' joining up in 1942 and his travels through South Africa, Iraq, India Ceylon, Burma & Thailand until the day before his death on 7th September 1945. I also have a photo' of him with his crew and I suppose their aircraft - date and place unknown.
Roy Shute.

[pietrzak309]

Colin, we have been working with the son of Lt. Col Wigginton OBE MiD and the CWGC to have a commemorative stones placed for the people that lost their lives on Dakota KN584. This was due to have taken place on November 13th 2016. 4 crew, 6 RAF personnel, 6 British Army.
Thought that this may be of interest to you?
Kelvin @ Aircrew Remembered.

[Jagan]

http://frontiermyanmar.net/en/in-remembrance-wwii-descendants-seek-closure-in-yangon


Nearly 64 years later, the remains of Harry Smith and 15 others who died when Dakota KN 584 crashed on September 7, 1945, are still buried in a monastery compound in Mewaing, a remote village on the road from Bilin in Mon State to Papun, Kayin State.Decades of fighting between the Karen National Union and the Tatmadaw – often described as one of the world’s longest-running conflicts – have so far rendered that long-promised repatriation impossible.
But for the relatives of the deceased, a closure of sorts finally arrived on November 13. As the diplomats, military attachés and schoolchildren filtered out of Yangon’s Taukkyan War Cemetery at the end of the Remembrance Day service that morning, a small group remained behind for a much more personal memorial.
In the front right corner of the cemetery, a Commonwealth War Graves Commission banner obscured a stone block and 16 pedestals with bronze plaques commemorating those who died in the September 1945 crash. With short speeches concluded and the banner removed, relatives of four of the deceased who had travelled to Yangon for the ceremony began laying wreaths.

http://frontiermyanmar.net/sites/frontiermyanmar.net/files/styles/content_full_width/public/dsc01461.jpg?itok=GkZmZ105+


Although the question of the memorial at Taukkyan is settled, the future of the mass grave at Mewaing is less clear. Francis from the CWGC said that even if peace does come to Kayin State, it’s unlikely the men would be repatriated to Taukkyan.“If the site became accessible it is more likely that we would consider whether it was possible to mark the graves in situ. Exhumation and movement of remains is always a last resort as we believe the individuals should be allowed to rest in peace,” he said.
Gavin Wigginton and Christopher Whybrow expressed similar sentiments.
“My family and I think it appropriate that the bodies should remain where they have been for the last 70 years. We hope that if and when the security situation improves that the gravesite will be marked simply, and will be protected and maintained,” Whybrow said.

[Jagan]

related links
From 2014: https://www.mmtimes.com/in-depth/11941-finding-a-lost-father-from-kew-to-kayin-state.html which features this photo:

https://www.mmtimes.com/files/images/mte/2014/750/burial-site-1945.jpg

And also http://www.aircrewremembered.com/smith-harold.html