410402 - Unaccounted airwoman and airmen - 2-4-1941

[Henk Welting]

What caused the death of and/or what were the places of death registration for:

ACW2 Honor HASSETT - 424890 - died of wounds or injuries received on active service;
Sgt (Wop/Ag) Harry JAGGER - 751860 - 21 Sqn (Watton, Norfolk) - killed on active service;
AC2 Alan W. SPARROW - 1080787 - not found Flight archives;
AC2 John G. VEITCH - 1368494 - not found Flight archives, and
AC1 George W. WINTHROP - 993901 - 10 BC, 935 (Balloon) Sqn, Manchester & Bowlee - not found Flight archives.

No proposed aircraft losses for this day.
Why so many names missing in the Flight Magazine archives ?

Regards and thanks for your help.
Henk.

[CZ_RAF]

Hi Henk,

Sgt (Wop/Ag) Harry JAGGER - 751860 - 21 Sqn (Watton, Norfolk) - killed on active service;

posiibly:
21 SQ Blenheim R3661
DAmaged by flak, one man from P/O Ogilvie's crew killed

source: J. Foreman - 1941 Part1 - The Battle of Britain to the Blitz

Pavel

[CZ_RAF]

Unfortunately there must be a typo - Blenheim R3661 was already 18. 7. 40 as plane of 53 Sq - never serving with 21 Sq.

Pavel

[Henk Welting]

Thanks Pavel; search will go on.
Regards,
Henk.

[BillG]

Henk,
I think you can rule out the 21 Squadron Blenheim with regard to Harry Jagger. If he is listed as killed on active service it can't be the gunner on Ogilvie's crew as he would be listed Killed in Action.
Regards,
Bill.

[thorne83]

Hassett - registered in Poole aged 27.
Jagger - registered in Wayland aged 22.
There is an Alan W I Sparrow registered in Fylde aged 20.
Veitch registered in Lancaster aged 35
Winthrop registered in Manchester aged 27.

Cheers, Tom

[CZ_RAF]

Bill,

it seems to me you can be right.
CWGC returns for this date and 21 Sq only Jagger but sure the gunner of Ogilvie's crew can be also one of 52 records returned for the date.
But if you will chek all of them - as I have already done there are only few RAF members, most of them of different trade and unit.
There are only two without trade and unit:

SPARROW, ALAN WILLIAM IRISON
Initials: A W I
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Aircraftman 2nd Class
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
Date of Death: 02/04/1941
Service No: 1080787
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Plot N.A. Grave 192.
Cemetery: WIMBLEDON (GAP ROAD) CEMETERY


Name: VEITCH, JOHN GEORGE
Initials: J G
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Aircraftman 2nd Class
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
Age: 35
Date of Death: 02/04/1941
Service No: 1368494
Additional information: Son of Robert William and Mary Sinclair Veitch, of Leith, Edinburgh; husband of Mary M. B. Veitch, of Leith.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Sec. M. Grave 1078.
Cemetery: EDINBURGH EASTERN CEMETERY

But as I know in 1941 all flying crew members has at least rank of Sgt so they does not fit.

So mabye there was typo - killed in active service instead of killed in action - but I personally believe that Jagger was the gunner of Ogilvie's crew:-)

Pavel

[BillG]

Pavel,
You may well be right my friend. I guess we need someone with the ORB for 21 Squadron to clarify the matter.
Best Wishes,
Bill.

[Henk Welting]

Gents,
Have problems to follow your discussion on this thread. With regard to OGILVIE: do you mean P/O James Flockhart Thom OGILVIE - 87025, who went missing 15-5-1941 on Blenheim V6372/H together with Sgts R.P. MAYERS and W.V. FILLINGHAM ?
Do hope the 21 Sqn ORB will have some more info; it could be that JAGGER was fatally wounded on a raid and "KOAS" should read "KIA" in the Flight archives. Perhaps somebody having access to The Times archives could check for the status.
Best regards,
Henk.

[CZ_RAF]

Hi Henk,

sorry for troubles but we were discussing if it is possible for JAGGER to be fatally wounded/killed by flak aboard Blenheim if his status was KOAS. But as you mentioned it can be typo or just an error.

I am not so sure if this OGILVIE was P/O James Flockhart Thom OGILVIE but this surname seems to be quite unusual to be two pilots of this name at the same time with 21 SQ.

Hope some has the ORB for 21 SQ, if not drop me a note about 25 Sept as I am planning to visit PRO.

Pavel

[Dick]

Hi
I confess I am not familiar with the distinctions between KOAS and KIA, but would KOAS be appropriate for someone who was wounded on an Op , got back to his home Airfield (21 Sqn were based at Watton which is in the reporting area of Wayland,Norfolk) but died later the same day in Station Sick Qtrs or a local hospital?
Regards
Dick

[CZ_RAF]

Hi Dick,

it is good question. I was thinking about the same but was unable to find any official order how to distinct KIA a KOAS.

I will be glad if anyone could provide us official definitions of such terms.

At the present time there are used other abbreviations used for soldiers/airmen who died as the result of wounds:

DOW - Died of Wounds
or more specific
DWRIA - died of wounds received in action

Pavel

[Henk Welting]

Pavel,
......as there is: Died of wounds or injuries received on active service.
Regards,
Henk.

[BillG]

Henk, hope you got the relayed message from Pel Temple about Harry Jagger. For the benefit of others who have been following this thread, Jagger WAS the Wop/Ag in Ogilvie's crew and, according to the 21 Sqdn ORB he was killed by AA fire which would put him in the "Killed in Action" category.
Cheers,
Bill.

[CZ_RAF]

Thanks for confirmation Bill.

Pavel

[Henk Welting]

Yes Bill, PM received; thanks as well to Pel for this excellent info.
Regards,
Henk.

[dennis_burke]

Sparrow, A/C 2nd Cl. A. W. L.
and
Veitch A/C 2nd Cl. J. G.
and
Wintrop A/C 1st Cl. G. W.
all listed DOAS in Flight mag May 22nd.

Not sure where the confusion was but may 8th Flight magazine lists:
Sgt H Jagger 751860 in the KILLED IN ACTION (WHILE FLYING IN OPERATIONS AGAINST THE ENEMY).— section.

[alclark]

I have Winthrop as being with 925 Squadron, he was on a motorcycle with and AC Taylor when they were in a collision with a civilian lorry. Taylor was seriously injured.

[jonheyworth]

William Reginald Bell Johnston 1484, died in Caufield military hospital of pulmonary tuberculosis

[jonheyworth]

John George Veitch 1368494 , attached to Number 7 Recruits Centre, was admitted seriously ill to to RAF Hospital, Morecombe on 22 March, where he died of a perforated gastric ulcer

[jonheyworth]

Alan William Irison Sparrow 1080787 , attached to Number 10 Signals Recruits Centre , was admitted dangerously ill to to Moss Side hospital, Kirkham, on 1 April, where he died of cerebro spinal meningitis