400110 - Unaccounted Airmen - 10-01-1940

[Alex Smart]

Hello,

400110 - Unaccounted Airmen - 10-01-1940

From Henk's List -

Nil

CWGC -

UK
COE, Richard ( Canadian ) - F/O(Pilot) - 39273 - RAF - 242 Sqn.
Kirkby Wharfs ( St John the Baptist ) Churchyard Extension, Yorkshire.
[ Hurricane I - N2341 - 242 Sqn ].

HANNE, John Henry - Sgt - 564212 - RAF - 110 Sqn.
VICK, Edwin - AC1c - 540323 - RAF - 110 Sqn.
WILLIAMS, George Llewellyn - Sgt - 524733 - RAF - 110 Sqn
The three airmen named above are all remembered on the Runnymede Memorial, Surrey.
They were crew of Blenheim IV - P4859 - 110 Sqn.

Alex

[Richard Cawsey]

On 10.1.40 Master I N7422 of A&AEE broke up in a dive near Boscombe Down. The pilot, Fg Off David William Stannard baled out, but the observer, presumably civilian, was killed. Is his name known?

[paulmcmillan]

Richard can’t help you i a afraid but yes I would love to know the answer to this as well

[Alex Smart]

https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/registration/N7422

Is it odd that there are no deaths recorded in CWGC for this period in civil or miscellaneous sections between the 9th and 17th January, 1940 Except One retiree who died at sea, and two Lighthouse men.
Could the reported death (?) in relation to this a/c crash be incorrect ?

[paulmcmillan]

Thanks Alex maybe not recorded as war death / the pilot killed in Spitfire prototype crash 4th Sept 1939 Flt Lt Gilbert Stanbridge White, is not on CWGC - maybe a look at Boscombe Down Area death registration may give a clue - but need the reference -

[Resmoroh]

There are 24 male Death Regs (aged between 20 and 50) in the Salisbury Reg Dist (incl Boscombe, etc) in Q1 1940. I can pass then in a s/sheet if anybody wants them - or I can paste here?
HTH
Peter Davies

[paulmcmillan]

Peter I was looking at those do you have the Vol 5a and page No and age as well

Qtr1 was 5a Pages 525 662 ( found by trial and error) that is 128 pages for 91 days

Some pages have 6 names others 1 or. 2 etc I wonder If by numeric analysis You could guess what pages were in use circa 10 Jan this assumes that they were recorded by some sort of order And I wonder how it worked at weekends - I know there can be a delay in recording

But yes please 24 names is doable To cross check

For instance Charles O Hand aged 34 is the first target I was going for but if you have a list already that is brilliant

Thanks Paul

[paulmcmillan]

Ps if you then cross ref with 1939 Register you can eliminate some names or instance Charles O Hand was a Bar steward In a working mans club so not him only 23 to go

[Resmoroh]

Paul, Hi,
I've ordered them by Page Number - if that helps:-

Watson *Arthur H *49 *Salisbury *5a 527
Turner *Edgar K *20 *Salisbury *5a 529
Mann *Bertie J *45 *Salisbury *5a 531
Gilmour *Hugh *49 *Salisbury *5a 531
Robbins *Ernest W *40 *Salisbury *5a 532
WHITE *Stanley H *45 *Salisbury *5a 535
Hancock *Herbert R *19 *Salisbury *5a 551
MOORE *Cyril *27 *Salisbury *5a 552
Hand *Charles O *34 *Salisbury *5a 555
Hodge *Leonard S L H *47 *Salisbury *5a 556
Hermon-Hodge *Leonard St L *47 *Salisbury *5a 556
Horne *Leonard J *24 *Salisbury *5a 558
Sheppard *William T *18 *Salisbury *5a 560
Dobdinson *Arthur D *43 *Salisbury *5a 570
Newby *Gilbert E *47 *Salisbury *5a 575
Coombs *Percy *48 *Salisbury *5a 581
Nunn *Kenneth *21 *Salisbury *5a 588
Cook *William C *49 *Salisbury *5a 590
Jarman *Harry G *20 *Salisbury *5a 591
Armstead *Harold G *20 *Salisbury *5a 597
Flower *Ernest L *37 *Salisbury *5a 605
Spruels *Sydney W H *33 *Salisbury *5a 608
Glasson *Ernest J *42 *Salisbury *5a 625
Farley *William G *28 *Salisbury *5a 637

HTH
Peter Davies

[paulmcmillan]

Great thanks makes my job easier

Stanley H White can be discounted he was a Paving Mason and Cyril Moore a soldier who died 27 Jan 1940
So only another 21 to go !

[paulmcmillan]

Watson *Arthur H *49 *Salisbury *5a 527

He was A Surgeon and reserve RAMC officer

1939 register and CWGC list hopefully will
Hopefully Make the other 20 names easy to check but I am Signing off now unless anyone else up for a challenge!

[wwrsimon]

Hello

Gilmour *Hugh *49 *Salisbury *5a 531 - he died on January 10th 1940, from the National Probate Calendar. The 1939 Register records him as a Civil Servant/War [obscure] ..ar Office.

Regards

Simon

[paulmcmillan]

Simon

Wow that looks a very likely candidate thanks - needs further research BUT looking a very good possibility - how did you get it so quick did you go with low volume numbers?

I used to work at Boscimbe Down when I was 20 for 6 months I remember a wall of honour - of course I wish I had made a list of names at the time but it may have been only for the Section I was working in !

[wwrsimon]

I came across him yesterday after going through the deaths registered in Salisbury up to March 1940 (as Peter did), and found his date of death on the Probate Calendar, but I didn't get round (okay, I forgot) to check him against the 1939 Register.

I was going to have another look today.

Simon

[paulmcmillan]

Spouse:
Father: William Gilmour
Mother: Euphemia Leslie
Children:
Birth: 10/1890 Shawlands Renfrewshire Scotland
Death: 10/01/1940 Salisbury Wiltshire England
Residence: 1939 Wiltshire England

I can see AM in that 1939 reference but that is wishful thinking

I can’t see England and Scotland Select Burial references 1800 to 2016 in Dumfries if anyone can do see if any more info?

[paulmcmillan]

Simon this is all he da Forum teamwork in action. - this is what makes this the go to resource for RAF research worldwide

[paulmcmillan]

I think I found him coming back from South Africa In 1929 listed as Civil Servant

He maybe on London gazette if high enough grade

[paulmcmillan]

Ps also need to check AFL as well

[Richard Cawsey]

This may be a red herring:

The Institute of Chemistry of Great Britain and Ireland. Journal and Proceedings. Part II: 1940:

HUGH GILMOUR died at Salisbury, on 10th January, in his 60th year. Educated at Shawlands Academy and Allan Glen's School, Glasgow, he pursued his ... [full article only available at vast expense]

[Resmoroh]

At the risk of asking the obvious - has anybody checked the ORB(s) for A&AEE and/or RAF Boscombe Down? I am assuming that ATC at RAF Boscombe Down must have kept a log of airframe movements (including any FTR flights), even if the actual purpose(s) of those movements were highly Classified?
Just a thought!
HTH
Peter Davies

[wwrsimon]

Interesting Richard, thanks for posting that. Could indeed be a red herring!

He was 49 according to the Deaths Index Register, and the 1939 register has his D.o.B. as October 27th 1890. Could be an OCR error in the Institute of Chemistry pdf file?

Regards

Simon

EDIT: a family tree on ancestry records that he was an Analytical Research Chemist at the Government Experimental Station, Porton. Born November 27th 1890.

[paulmcmillan]

Oh well - back to drawing board at least another name eliminated

It is possible that Stannard was alone in the Miles and that is why no name Has ever Been found - though I have seen reference to a second person who was killed I will look at my file on this again Monday . The reason I am interested it for my bail out list

[Resmoroh]

The Berkshire Aviation Museum at Woodley (https://museumofberkshireaviation.co.uk/) has a voluminous amount of stuff on all Miles a/c - including their demises!!! The last time I used them - many years ago! - they were extremely helpful!! A clue might be hidden away with them?
HTH
Peter Davies

[paulmcmillan]

Got some of it without paying £42

Educated at Shawlands ,Academy and Allan Glen's School, Glasgow, he pursued his professional training at the Glasgow and West of Scotland now the Royal Technical- College, Glasgow, and was awarded the Asso ciateship of the College in 1911. In the following year, he was*he was appointed demonstrator in the Chemistry Department of the West of Scotland Agri*Agri- cultural College, and, in 1914, joined the staff of the Indo-Burmah Petro-. leum Co., Ltd., at Rangoon. On the outbreak of war, however, he returned and received a commission in the 10th Battalion, South Lancs.

[paulmcmillan]

Peter Moss who is the Miles expert (written 3 books of the history of company and a prod list) didn’t have a name and he would have been all over the files army Woodley - I think going through the 24 names and eliminating them all is the best way of doing that

[paulmcmillan]

UK Flight Testing Accidents 1940 to 1971 mentions only a pilot who was Forced ejected from the plane when it broke up

[paulmcmillan]

Here is what I have on this incident

I am sure that Ross had access to Accident Card on this one and it only listed the Pilot - But it may be my memory at fault - It appears the source mat be The Secret Years: Flight Testing at Boscombe Down 1939-1945- I still think we need to eliminate the other 19 names just in case


10.1.40 Master I N7422 AAEE near Boscombe Down Ab. The Secret Years: Flight Testing at Boscombe Down 1939-1945 N7422 broke up after diving at about 290 mph with the cockpit open causing the tailplane attachment to fail. The pilot baled out but the observer was "killed". There is a Roll of Honour in the appendices but it does not list the observer. OK there is a short appendix of "Senior Staff" there is no uniformed name in there lower than S/Ldr and mostly W/Cdr. None of your 3 names mentioned. There is a half page index of personnel which includes F/Off D W Stannard and that refers to an introductory chapter where in a piece about the (small number of) fatalities during test flying it says

"...Stannard, a pre-war pilot, escaped by parachute in Jan 1940 from a Master that broke up during diving tests; his slow descent was witnessed by many on the aerodorme."
From Miles Aircraft the Wartime Years

c/n 1125 N7422 Taken from the assembly line and 'DeId as airframe for installation of Bristol Mercury VIII engine' to the Experimental Department on 22.6.39, to become the prototype Miles M.19 Master Mk.II. Sliding hood also fitted. First flown, by chief test pilot 'Bill' Skinner, in 10.39. Deld to A&AEE Boscombe Down 27.11.39 (the card has 29.11.39). In 12.39, it was noted that N7422 had the original hydro-mechanical pitch control of the propeller; could carry eight practice bombs and had been fitted with an anti-spin parachute. On 10.1.40, N7422 was being flown by F/O D W Stannard, 'A Flt, Performance Test Sqdn, A&AEE Boscombe Down, on full throttle diving tests with the cockpit cover open. He climbed to 15,000ft and then eased it into a dive, which was continued until the limiting rpm for the engine and an indicated airspeed of 290 mph had been reached. At about 11,000ft during the recovery from the dive, the aircraft went out of control and broke up. The structural faiure originated at the tailplane front spar attachment fitting, which sheared upwards under the influence of large aerodynamic loads and the tailplane detached. On releasing his Sutton Harness, the pilot was forcibly ejected from the aircraft and thereafter made a successful parachute, descent over Amesbury. It was considered that the tailplane may have been excited into vibration or flutter by the position of the cockpit cover. Cat.E 16.1.40. CLN recorded; Deld to O/C RAF Station Sealand 30.9.39, this, however, was in error and should have been recorded against c/n1118, N7415.