View Full Version : 410427 - Unaccounted airman - 27-4-1941 (Canada)

Henk Welting
9th September 2008, 13:09
What caused the death of:

LAC John G. PERMUTH - 1236976 - 33 SFTS, Carberry, Manitoba - buried Brandon, Manitoba.

For Bill Walker:
PC problems already solved ? Still have an outstanding PM. Did you have a talk to Les Allison ?


9th September 2008, 13:27
All I can say is that he was killed in a Flying Accident on this date

Bill Walker
9th September 2008, 23:16
LAC Permuth was the sole occupant of Harvard 2790, which crashed at Carberry at 21:25 local time on 27 April 1941. The aircraft had just arrived at Carberry in February 1941, from 32 SFTS at Regina. in April 1941 33 SFTS would have been almost exclusively RAF. Sorry, no more details available.

PC is up and running, but I'm still bringing my database up to where it was a few weeks ago. Henk, I will send you a personal message on my chat with Les.

Henk Welting
10th September 2008, 10:09
Thanks Bill for this excellent info. PM received and meanwhile answered.

Henk Welting
10th September 2008, 10:32
Now I know why I had LAC PERMUTH as unaccounted for, although his name is mentioned by Les Allison in his TSGNO Appendix I, page 852.
Harvard 2790 was (according Les Allison) flown by:
F/O A.F.M. MacLEAN - 40458 - TSGNO Appendix I, page 851, and
LAC E. Walton - 1160141 - TSGNO Appendix I, page 855,
both 34 SFTS and buried at Medicine Hat, Alberta.
Don't believe that a Harvard could fit three !
Please could you have another look at these airmen (perhaps 'Dakota' has the solution ?).
Thanks and regards,

10th September 2008, 13:17
Maclean and Walton were both "Killed April 28 near Medicine Hat, Alberta" according to the Hamilton Spectator, 1941/05/06

Henk Welting
10th September 2008, 13:53
Agree with you Paul. CWGC also has MacLEAN and WALTON 28-4-1941. Allison has them all on Harvard 2790. Amended my files: PERMUTH on Harvard 2790 and the other airmen back on my 'unaccounted' list (awaiting info from oversea !).

10th September 2008, 14:25
Would Suggest Maclean and Walton on Harvard 2719

2719 "Category A damage on 28 April 1941 while with No. 34 Service Flying Training School at Medicine Hat, Alberta, destroyed by fire."


Location and date match!

Henk Welting
10th September 2008, 15:40
Thanks Paul. Perhaps Bill has some more info on cause and location.

10th September 2008, 18:04
G'day Chaps

(1) At 23:20 hours on the 28th of April 1941, Harvard 2719 from No. 34 S.F.T.S. at Medicine Hat, Alberta crashed one mile north of Holson, Alberta. The aircraft went into a gentle diving turn to the left until it struck the ground.

The A.I.B. concluded that the accident was probably caused by pilot fatigue. IT was recommended that no flying instructor carry out more that three hours of continuous dual instruction in night landing.

Flying Instructor - 40458 Flying Officer Alexander F. MacLean - Killed

Pupil Pilot - Eric 1160141 L.A.C. Eric Walton

(2) Permuth was killed when his Harvard s/n 2790 crashed one mile from Carberry aerodrome during night time circuts and landings. After taking off and climbing to approxiamately 300 feet, the Harvard went into a steep right hand turn, lost height and struck the ground with his starboard wing after turning approxiamately 120 degrees.

The cause was attributed to a possible faulty artificial horizon. If so the right wing dropped while the artificial horizon showed the aircraft level and slightly below the horizon. The pupil pulled the control column back to get the minature airplane slightly above the horizon which in fact caused the airplane to turn and nose drop until it struck the ground.

The A.I.B. recommended that more importance be given to the turn and bank indicator instead of the artificial horizon.


Bill Walker
10th September 2008, 23:04
Thanks very much Chris. The aircraft record card for 2790 lists the crash time as 21:25. I know the record card accident details are usually preliminary and were seldom updated when more info became available, but this could also be a case of differing time zones. 21:25 local in Manitoba could be 23:25 back in The Centre of the Universe (Rockcliffe).

Henk Welting
11th September 2008, 10:35
Thanks Chris and Bill.
Best regards to Canada.