410427 - Unaccounted airmen - 27-4-1941

[Henk Welting]

What caused the death of and/or what were the places of death registration for:

LAC Arthur S. DAVIS - 1156061;
AC2 Hugh R. ELDER - 1001592 - 8 BC, 921 (Balloon) Sqn, Fazakerley;
AC2 George C. GRUNDY - 1051471 - 239 Sqn (Gatwick, Surrey);
Cpl William LENNON - 855094 - 8 BC, 921 (Balloon) Sqn, Fazakerley;
F/Sgt (Wop/Ag) Douglas H. PROUDMAN - 635790;
Sgt (Pilot) Andrew RENNIE - RCAF R/69878 - Master aircraft pres. crashed near Oxford; death registered at Ploughley, Oxfordshire;
Sgt (Pilot) Ernest H. ROFF - 1376690 - 92 Sqn (Biggin Hill, Kent) - commemorated Panel 51 of the Runnymede Memorial, and
Sgt (Pilot) Frederick J. YOUNGER - 926192.

Proposed aircraft losses for this day:

Spitfire I - X4546 - 53 OTU - collided with Spitfire I X4618 same unit.

Regards and thanks for your help.
Henk.

[Henk Welting]

Is it possible Sgt ROFF was killed on Spitfire W3319 ? Franks and also a Spitfire file have for W3319 and E.H. ROFF 27-"8"-1941. Also Air Britain has 27-8-1941. Date CWGC incorrect ?
Regards,
Henk.

[paulmcmillan]

W3319 Was named Winchester - I wonde if Gifts of War has anything on this -I think CWGC has wrong date!


http://www3.hants.gov.uk/museum/curtis-museum/alton-history/alton-spitfire.htm

[Dick]

Hi Henk
Davis,24 is registered at St Albans,Hertfordshire, Elder,31 and Lennon,25, are both registered at Crosby,Lancashire, which is consistent with their unit based at Fazakerly which is on the edge of Liverpool, Grundy,27, is registered at Surrey S E which covers Gatwick. You have Rennie at Ploughley, Oxfordshire. So is Younger,24 which might place them on the same a/c. Neither Proudmen or Roff came up(for Roff i also looked in the 3rd Qtr of 1941). Air Britain serials has the 2 Spitfires but records them as crashed ,no mention of a collision. 53 OTU according to Sturtivant was based at Heston v. close to where Heathrow is now
Regards
Dick

[Henk Welting]

Thanks Dick and Paul. Let's wait for more reactions.
Regards,
Henk.

[davew]

I have Younger and Rennie in the two Spitfires, but which was which?

Gifts says about W3319
"..crashed into the Channel while escorting Blenheims. Sgt Ernest harvey Roff 1376690 was seen in his dinghy off Dunkirk, but his body was never recovered, and his name appears on panel 51 of the Runneymede memorial, although the register has the date date 27th April 1941 in error."

regards DaveW

[Dick]

Air Britain gives no location for either of the 2 Spitfires. There is no reason why they were not on a Navex out of Heston(53 OTU) to the Oxford area when they came to grief. It just confuses Henk's choices a bit!!
Regards
Dick

[alclark]

I thought I might not have any info from the 53 ORB for this accident, but I did copy it down.

April 27th 1941, “Pupil Sergeants A.R. Rennie and F.J. Younger collided in the air and were
killed.”

Two more off the list, though you'll need the 1180s to tell which pilot was flying which aircraft.

[alclark]

When looked up the 8 FTS entry for the 28th I noticed they had a missing aircraft reported on the 27th.

April 27th 1941, “No.1281098 LAC Morrison, F.W., (32 Course), missing from local flying
practise in N7511. Investigation held by Wing Commander Simpson on 30th April.”

[Henk Welting]

I have Younger and Rennie in the two Spitfires, but which was which?

Gifts says about W3319
"..crashed into the Channel while escorting Blenheims. Sgt Ernest harvey Roff 1376690 was seen in his dinghy off Dunkirk, but his body was never recovered, and his name appears on panel 51 of the Runneymede memorial, although the register has the date date 27th April 1941 in error."

regards DaveW

In "Gifts of War": ".......although the register has the date 27th April 1941 in error" does this mean that the correct date was 27th August ?
Regards,
Henk.

[dennis_burke]

Sgt E H Roff appears in as Missing Beleived KIA in the Magazine dated October 16th 1941, I think this would lend its weight to suggesting that the date of death was the later one, August 1941.

The 22 Sqn men listed same date on Runnymede Arnold, Mackie and Ramsay were listed missing June 26th magazine as are two men from 15 Sqn, Channer and Golding. About half the men from 29 April are also in that list, the remainder seem to be in the June 19th magazine.

LAC Arthur S. DAVIS - 1156061; St Albans - Can;t find him in Flight
AC2 Hugh R. ELDER - 1001592 - Crosby KOAS June 19th magazine
AC2 George C. GRUNDY - 1051471 - Surrey S E DOAS June 19th magazine
Cpl William LENNON - 855094 - Crosby KOAS June 19th magazine
F/Sgt (Wop/Ag) Douglas H. PROUDMAN - 635790; Died of Wounds or Injuries rec'd on Active Service, June 19th magazine. There is a D H Proudman age 20 registered in Barnstable in the 3rd Qtr or 1941. Does that match a hospital.

Both these men appear then in June 26th magazine KOAS
Sgt (Pilot) Andrew RENNIE - RCAF R/69878 - Ploughley; A. R. Rennie in Flight magazine.
Sgt (Pilot) Frederick J. YOUNGER - 926192. Ploughley;

Do we want to contact CWGC about Roff? I can.

[Henk Welting]

Thanks Dennis. Yes please, take over action CWGC re ROFF.
Regards,
Henk.

[dennis_burke]

I've sent them a rambling message, I'll see how it fairs out.

[dennis_burke]

Got an email from CWGC today:

Dear Mr Burke



Further to my e-mail of 17 December 2009,



I have amended Sgt E H Roff’s details as given below:



Sergeant ROFF, ERNEST HARVEY
Unit: 92 Sqdn.
Regiment: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
Service No: 1376690
Date of Death: 27 August 1941
Commemoration: RUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL
United Kingdom
Panel 51.

Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

Yours sincerely,


Now, I'd sent CWGC my usual rambling message but suggested to them that they contact the AHB and RAF PMA to try confirm that which they should know we cannot attempt to confirm as non next of kin. I can only guess that the CWGC did contact the RAF to confirm that Sgt Roff died in August 1941 and not in April.

Hopefully well done chaps.

[Henk Welting]

Well done Dennis. Annotation made in my files re CWGC correction of date.
Regards,
Henk.

[Martyn A Critchlow]

AC2 George C. GRUNDY - 1051471 - death by misadventure, died at Redhill County Hospital of injuries following a fall from a service lorry.
(Surrey Mirror, 2 May 1941)

Martyn

[Graham Moore]

Douglas Harry Proudman died in North Devon Infirmary Barnstaple, accident at Ash Barton near Barnstaple

[jonheyworth]

Arthur Stanmore Davis 1156062 | Attached to Number 74 Signals Wing | Died at 06:40 Hours in the Hilllend Hospital, St. Albans of anaemia and carcinoma sarcoma of the thorax

[jonheyworth]

Douglas Benjamin Cutts 1195965 | attached to Number 3 SoTT | died in The infectious diseases hospital, Devonshire Road, Blackpool, of pulmonary tuberculosis with his mother, Mr B.M. Cutts, of Capstairs Road, West Mersea, Essex, at his bedside