410521 - Unaccounted airmen - 21-5-1941

[Henk Welting]

What were the places of death registration for:

AC2 Cyril CRAVEN - 1378277;
P/O (Pilot) Eric JACKSON - 44194, and
F/Lt (Pilot) Marcus KRAMER - DFC - 77345 (7467721 ?) - 242 Sqn (Stapleford Tawney, Essex) - commemorated on Panel 29 of the Runnymede Memorial. (May have been a casualty on Tiger Moth II, N6853 of 10 Grp Comms Flt; ran out of fuel in bad weather and ditched near Beachley, Monmouth).

Proposed aircraft losses for this day:

Botha I - L6541 - 4 FPP - crashed in forced landing SE of Lanark.
Magister I - N3787 - 16 EFTS - crashed on approach Burnaston.
Tiger Moth II - T6052 - 18 EFTS - crashed on approach Fairoaks.
Tiger Moth - AX786 (ex G-AEXG) - 3 PRU - spun into ground 1 mile SW of Girton, Cambridgeshire.

Regards and thanks for your help.
Henk.

[dennis_burke]

Cyril Craven Age 29 Don Valley district
Eric Jackson Age 21 Cambridge district

regards

Dennis

[Dick]

Hi Henk
Craven,29, registered at Don Valley, W Yorkshire
Jackson,21 registered at Cambridge which would be right for the accident at Girton, which is on the NW outskirts of the City
Kramer did not come up.
Regards
Dick

[Henk Welting]

Thanks Dennis and Dick for your info.
Regards,
Henk.

[paulmcmillan]

Kramer

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/ww2/sugar4.html

"His name is on the Runnymede memorial Panel 29. His AJEX card states that the Jewish Chaplains wrote to the father who replied that “his plane was seen to crash into the River Severn near Chepstow and his tunic was washed up almost immediately” and is therefore believed to be dead. Also that the “Times” reported his death on the 31/12/41."


Chepstow is near Monmouth

[Dick]

There is an interesting clash of information on Kramer. CWGC doesn't give a unit. Henk has him with 242 Sqn in Essex, but Paul's link indicates 2 possible other Sqns. 600 Sqn which in May 41 were flying Beaufighters at Colerne,near Bath and the Bristol Channel/ River Severn area that would include Chepstow for an a/c with the range of a Beaufighter, and 29 Sqn also with Beaufighters, but at West Malling in Kent or Coltishall, in Norfolk. A Tiger Moth as a station a/c or a Sqn a/c would not be entirely out of place but would be quite a long way from home if it was from the Eastern side of England and came down near Monmouth.The info on Sqn locations comes from Jefford's RAF Squadrons
Regards
Dick

[paulmcmillan]

Does Wynn in MoBoB have anything on Kramer?

[nicks]

Not much more in MoBoB other than he was posted to 256 Sqn at Catterick on January 1 1941 before moving to HQ 10 Group on February 3rd, as Group Gunnery Officer.

Wynn also states that he was serving with 29 Sqn at the time of his death.

Regards,

Nick

[Henk Welting]

Hi Henk
Craven,29, registered at Don Valley, W Yorkshire
Jackson,21 registered at Cambridge which would be right for the accident at Girton, which is on the NW outskirts of the City
Kramer did not come up.
Regards
Dick

Hi Ross,
Tiger Moth AX785 (ex. G-AEXG), P/O JACKSON supposed was killed on, was 3 PRU. This was Coastal Command ? He's not listed in your Vol.1. Please advise.
Regards,
Henk.

[John Larder]

Marcus Kramer Gp. Gunnerey Officer HQ 10 Gp. lost in Tiger Moth (N6853) when it ran out of fuel and ditched in River Severn near Beachley. (Air Historical Branch)

[Henk Welting]

John,
Also have on N6853: S/Ldr William J. METHVEN - 43349.
Regards,
Henk.

[Henk Welting]

Hi Ross,
Tiger Moth AX785 (ex. G-AEXG), P/O JACKSON supposed was killed on, was 3 PRU. This was Coastal Command ? He's not listed in your Vol.1. Please advise.
Regards,
Henk.

Ross,

AX785 should read AX786.

Henk.

[John Larder]

Henk
So do I but I think it came from an earlier posting of yours. Thee was no mention in the AHB reply od any other crew mmember.

[paulmcmillan]

Impressments log has for G-AEXG


3584 G-AEXG AX786 12.7.40. Merseyside Aero & Sports Co. Ltd. Delivered to No. 15 M.U. on August 3rd for storage and was released as AX786 to No. 3 P.R.U. on 8.5.41. But on 21.5.41, AX786 spun in irom a low altitude, while on a flight to Farnborough and crashed one mile S.W. of Girton College Cambridge, and both occupants were killed. SOC on 31.5.41 as Cat.W.

So 2 on AX786 ?

[Henk Welting]

Thanks Paul for confirmation that two casualties were on TM AX786.

Henk.

[paulmcmillan]

Henk

Do you know who the second casualty on the TM was ?

Thanks
Paul

[Henk Welting]

Unfortunately not Paul, had a little hope that Ross would react as this TM was from 3 PRU.
Regards,
Henk.

[dennis_burke]

For Oxfords V3220 and W6583 of No 6 SFTS. not mentioned above but from Northern Ireland PRONI Wills calenders:

Ferguson Clifford Samuel of "Ansdell" Ardlee Avenue Holywood county Down leading aircraftsman R.A.F. died 21 May 1941 at the Hospital Little Rissington Gloucester Administration Belfast 5 November to Frederick William Ferguson hardware merchant.

[Ross_McNeill]

F1180 for Tiger Moth N6853 records two fatalites and lists Methven as pilot.

AX786 is listed as assigned to RAF Station Oakington with pilot from No.7 Sqn. 1 fatality, 1 injured,

M A Coote, 42804
P/O E Jackson

Ross

[Bradders2175]

I have only just rejoined the Forum. I'm sorry to hear of Henk's death.
I have additional information regarding Marcus Kramer DFC (77345).
Henk mentioned that Marcus was at one time of 242 Squadron at Stapleford Tawney. However, looking at his record (he was my wife's Great Uncle)I only have him shown as 600, 23 and 256 Squadrons, before becoming Group Gunnery Officer for 10 Group on the 3rd February 1941.
I would be interested if anyone has any other information to back up the link to 242 Squadron.
Paul

[jonheyworth]

Herbert John Tabern 978105, was killed in action, initially being listed as missing as a battle casualty for 6 months before being declared dead with a presumed date of death

[jonheyworth]

Ronald George Stone 545906 I was seen to be killed in action by 522242 Corporal Brooks at Maleme and was buried near the airfield

[jonheyworth]

Herbert John Tabern 978105 | was killed in action on 21 May in an air raid and buried at Rethymon by Chaplain Conchie

[jonheyworth]

Cyril Craven 1378277 | attached to RAF Finningley | died at a starfish site off Holnwood Lane, Armthorpe, Doncaster. A post mortem found he had died of acute primary broncho pneumonia