410704 - Unaccounted airmen - 4-7-1941

[Henk Welting]

What were the places of death registration for:

AC1 Robert MORRIS - 1379278;
AC2 Dennis SMITH - 1211608, and
LAC William P. WISE - 754393.

Proposed aircraft lost this day:
Tiger Moth II - N6623 - 6 EFTS - crashed on landing Denton.

Regards and thanks for your help.
Henk.

[Dick]

Hi Henk
The Robert Morris,31, that corresponds with CWGC is registered at Ruthin,Denbighshire, N Wales
Smith,20, is registered at Lichfield
Wise,25, is registered at Blackpool
none are near your proposed a/c which was in Northamptonshire
Regards
Dick

[Henk Welting]

Is it possible that:
AC1 Norman DICKINSON - 615811 - Runnymede Panel 57 - 72 Sqn, was lost at sea on board S.S. Anselm ?
Regards,
Henk.

[Henk Welting]

Thanks Dick for info on airmen 4-7-1941; by mistake 'launched' a question of an unaccounted airman of 5-7-1941 on this thread.
Regards,
Henk.

[Dick]

Hi Henk
If Dickinson was on board the Anselm then he was no longer a member of 72 Sqn which was at Acklington to 8/7/41/and then Gravesend in Kent. The RAF personnel on the Anselm,all of whom died, were in transit from the Clyde to Freetown, Sierra Leone when they were torpedoed about 300 mls N of the Azores (http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/maritime-1.html#maritime_disasters_1941)
the website has brief detail but no names
Regards
Dick

[Henk Welting]

Thanks Dick for clarification. Meanwhile busy with "Anselm names" and nearly have all 175 missing airmen.
Regards,
Henk.

[dave bristol]

Henk,

How many names do you have for losses on HMT Anselm?

Checking the GRO list I can only get to 160 names including Norman Dickinson; this is after judicious use of wild cards and a mark one eyeball check of a lot of the sheets.

bw

Dave Molyneux

[malcolm_raf]

Hi Merry Christmas to all

On checking my Anselm list I have 177 confirmed and possibles.

I have included a number of personnel listed on GRO as Takoradi, 95 Sqn, 200 Sqn and 244 AMES. As there are only supposed to be 175 I therefore assume my two 244 AMES personnel are wrong and this would bring the number to a nice 175.

This is my list

ANDERSON, ANGUS RONALD MATHESON AC2
ASTLEY, EDWARD Cpl
AVERY, JOHN RICHARD AC2
AVESON, WALTER GEORGE Cpl
BALLINGER, ARTHUR JOHN LAC
BATEMAN, JOHN HERBERT AC2
BEAMENT, WILLIAM HAROLD AC2
BLACK, THOMAS BOWES AC2
BOSWELL, FREDERICK JAMES AC1
BRAND, JOHN RICHARD AC1
BROADHURST, HENRY Cpl
BROWN, JOSEPH Cpl
BROWN, RONALD OSCAR AC2
BUTLER, ROY AC2
CANE, PHILIP HENRY FREDERICK AC2
CARR, ALFRED GEORGE AC2
CARR, DOUGLAS
CARR, JAMES FREDERICK AC2
CHAPMAN, EDWIN DELANEY LAC
CHEESMAN, ALAN MERTON AC1
CLAYDON, LESLIE WILLIAM AC2
CLOSE, DONALD JONES Cpl
CLOUGH, FRANK AC2
COLLINGWOOD, MAURICE AC1
CONNOCK, ERNEST AC2
COOMBES, RODNEY DENNIS AC2
COSTELLO, PATRICK ARTHUR AC2
CRAGGS, MATTHEW FRANK LAC
CROFT, RONALD PERCY AC1
CUDWORTH, WARWICK GEORGE Cpl
DAREN, NATHAN Cpl
DAVIES, ROLAND ERNEST AC2
DEAKIN, HAROLD JAMES AC1
DEARNLEY, RICHARD AC2
DEIGHTON, RAYMOND SIDNEY LAC
DENNISON, ROBERT CAMPSALL AC2
DENSON, WILLIAM PETER Cpl
DONNELLY, JAMES EDWARD AC2
DROWER, RAYMOND VICTOR PIDSLEY LAC
EGAN, ALPHONSUS THOMAS AC1
ELLIOTT, KENNETH ALBERT AC1
FORSYTH, JOHN CHARLES AC1
FOULGER, GEORGE FREDERICK LAC
FRENCH, JOHN ERNEST AC2
FRY, REGINALD STANLEY AC1
FULLARTON, ARCHIBALD AC2
GILHOLM, ROBERT AC2
GIRVAN, ROBERT HALTON AC1
GRANT, LESLIE ERNEST LAC
GRAY, DAVID JAMES RICHARD BERNARD AC1
GREGORY, KENNETH WILFRED AC2
HALL, JACKSON WILLIAM AC1
HAMBIDGE/HAMBRIDGE, LOUIS ROLAND AC2
HAMMOND, JACK KENNETH AC2
HAMS, CONRAD AC1
HARRISON, CHARLES FRANK LAC
HAYWARD, WILLIAM THOMAS LAC
HEATH, ARNOLD AC1
HENDRIE, ARCHIBALD HUNTER LAC
HERK, JAMES AC1
HEY, HAROLD ERNEST LAC
HIGHAM, GEORGE NEIL AC1
HILL, NEVILLE LAC
PUGH, The Rev. HERBERT CECIL GC Chaplain
HOBBS, CECIL LAC
HOLLAND, CHARLES AC2
ILES, SYDNEY GILBERT Cpl
JACK, EARL ROMULUS AC2
JAQUES, HOUGHTON LAC
JEROME, STANLEY JOHN AC2
JONES, STANLEY AC2
JORDAN, EUGENE BRAMLEY AC2
JOSEPH, MAURICE AC1
KENWARD, CLAUDE Cpl
KIRKHAM, JOHN HARDING LAC
LAWSON, RICHARD CAMERON Cpl
LEACHMAN, SAMUEL LAC
LITTLEJOHN, ANTHONY EWART AC1
LOTHERINGTON, HAROLD IBITSON Sgt
MALONE, BERNARD AC1
MARSH, FREDERICK HERBERT AC1
MARTIN, ALAN AC1
MARTIN, NORMAN RUSSELL LAC
MASTERTON, JOHN HODGE AC1
MATHIE, ALBERT AC1
McALLISTER, JOHN AC2
McCARTHY, JAMES THOMAS AC2
McGREGOR, ROBERT POLSON AC2
McKINNEY, ANDREW AC1
McLEAN, WILLIAM JACK AC1
MEDLAND, GEORGE GILBERT LAC
MESSER, BERNARD JOHN AC1
MICHAELSON, GERALD WILFRED AC2
MILLS, NORMAN EDWARD AC2
MITCHELL, WALTER JOSEPH AC1
MOORE, RAYMOND DUNCAN AC1
MORRIS, VERNON AC1
MORTIMER, LAWRY BRIMSON AC1
MOWATT, ALEXANDER DAVIDSON Cpl
MUIR, SIMON WILLIAM SMITH Cpl
MUNSLOW, ARTHUR DENNIS AC2
MURRAY, MALCOLM AC1
NICKELLS, GEORGE HENRY LAC
NUDDS, HERBERT WILLIAM Cpl
OGG, ROBERT GEORGE AC2
ORAM, JACK EDWARD LAC
PAISLEY, HUGH AC1
PARKER, F M LAC
PATTERSON, JAMES AC1
PEPPERCORN, DONALD HENRY JAMES AC1
PHIPPS, REGINALD ALBERT AC2
PITBLADO, LAURENCE NINIAN AC2
PITTAWAY, ERNEST CHARLES Cpl
POPEJOY, FRANCIS ALFRED AC2
QUILL, JOHN JOSEPH AC1
REDGATE, FREDERICK WILLIAM AC2
RICHARDSON, HARRY AC1
RICHARDSON, WILLIAM GEORGE AC1
RICHMOND, HAROLD VICTOR Cpl
RIPLEY, CLARENCE ALBERT LAC
ROGERS, ROBERT DOUGLAS AC2
ROSE, FRANCIS BERNARD AC1
ROTHWELL, RICHARD CHARLES AC1
ROUSE, ALBERT JAMES AC1
SCRUGHAM, WALTER AC1
SEDDON, STANLEY AC1
SEGAR, JACK AC1
SHIPMAN, EDWARD AC1
SIMPSON, GEORGE IAN LAC
SINGLETON, MICHAEL LAC
SMITH, DONALD ALDOUS LAC
SMITH, EDWARD CHARLES LAC
SMITH, ERIC AC2
SMITH, HORACE WILLIAM AC1
SNELL, WILLIAM HERBERT ALFRED AC2
SPURRIER, NOEL AC1
SULLIVAN, GLYN STEPHEN LAC
SWADLING, JACK AC1
SWATTON, STANLEY AC1
THEOBALDS, DENNIS CHARLES AC2
THOMAS, ERNEST LAC
THOMAS, IVOR GWESSYN AC2
THOMPSON, CHARLES Cpl
THORNTON, HENRY FREDERICK AC2
THORPE, FREDERICK WILLIAM LAC
TURNER, DOUGLAS ERNEST AC2
TURNER, KENNETH LAC
TURNER, WALTER FREDERICK AC2
WAKEFIELD, BERNARD GILBERT LAC
WALKER, THOMAS WILLIAM AC2
WATERHOUSE, HENRY AC2
WATERS, GERALD FREDERICK Cpl
WATT, ERNEST Cpl
WEBBER, RUEBEN WILFRED AC2
WEBSTER, WILLIAM GEORGE AC1
WELSH, JOHN Cpl
WHITLOCK, JOHN GREENWOOD LAC
WIGG, VERNON SYDNEY HOWARD AC1
WILLIAMS, JOHN PRICE AC1
WILLIAMS, RICHARD AC1
WINDHAM, WILLIAM THELLUSSON DOUGHTY Flt Lt
WOODFORD, FRANCIS ALAN LAC
WOODS, CHARLES LEWIS AC1
CHAPMAN, ERIC (1073363) Cpl
MILES, PERCY GEORGE AC1
AUCKLAND, JOSEPH ARTHUR (Takoradi) AC1
AUSTIN, LESLIE JAMES (Takoradi) AC2
BAILEY, CYRIL FRANK (Takoradi) AC2
FERGUSSON, BRUCE ALEXANDER MACGREGOR (Takoradi) AC1
JAMES, EMRYS ANGELL (Takoradi) LAC
FARQUHAR, JOHN TYNDEL (200 Sqn) AC1
FAULKNER, FRANK KENNETH (200 Sqn) AC2
HOOPER, STANLEY (200 Sqn) LAC
SMITH, WILLIAM FREDERICK (200 Sqn) Cpl
SMITH, WILLIAM HENRY (1247181) (200 Sqn) AC2
BULLOCK, ARTHUR ROBERT (95 Sqn) AC1

[Henk Welting]

Gents,
Checked the list and ascertained that I was missing
LAC Norman R. MARTIN - 529671 - Panel 56 (amended my list).
On the other hand I've two more names listed:
Cpl Archie FREEBORN - 911698 - Panel 55, and
AC2 Donald FARAM - 1145451 - Panel 58.
Season Greetings,
Henk.

[malcolm_raf]

Hi Henk

Freeborm and Faram were the two I removed as it took the number to 177

Malcolm

[Henk Welting]

Malcolm,
Were FREEBORN and FARAM both 244 AMES ?
Regards,
Henk.

[malcolm_raf]

Hi Henk

Yes

[Henk Welting]

Thanks Malcolm for confirmation.

Henk.

[John Larder]

Malcom

there are 12 names in the Runnymede Register identified as lost with Anselm not on your list. THis is the 1999 paper edition and the information seems to have been missed off the on-line version. Most obvious is Pugh H.C. who won a posthumous G.C on Anselm.

[malcolm_raf]

Hi John

Who are the other 11?

Malcolm

[malcolm_raf]

Hi John

I have Pugh on my list but he was somehow missed off the list I posted earlier so I may also have the other missing 11. I certainly have 175 without the two 244 AMES members I originally thought might also be aboard.

Malcolm

[John Larder]

Malcolm

The other 11 are:

Auckland J.A., Austin L.J., Bullock A.R., Carr J.F., Chapman E., Farquhar J.T., Faulkner F.K., Fergusson B.A> McG., James E.A., Smith W.F., Smith W.H.

Incidentally I did learn something from checking the St. Anselm list. I always assumed there were no additions to Runnymede since completion of the monument and that as bodies were identified, the number of names would decline. One of the Carr's on your list wasn't in the Runnymede Register in 1999.

[Henk Welting]

John,
I informed CWGC some time ago on the third airman CARR and they answered to update their files. There were THREE named CARR in the first edition CWGC-register.
Henk.

[John Larder]

Henk

Thanks for explanation about 3rd Carr.

Malcolm

I owe you an apology. I was trying to check my list on my lap top with yours on my PC instead of printing off and checking as I have done this morning. I thought the whole list was alphabetical, so I have found my 11 but as you mentioned not Pugh whose citation mentions Anselm.

[dave bristol]

John,

PUGH is in Malcolm's list but out of alphabetical order - his name appears between HILL and HOBBS!

What about Norman DICKINSON?
Does his name appear on the CWGC Runnymede list with a reference to HMT Anselm?

bw

Dave Molyneux

[John Larder]

Dave

Norman Dickinson's entry has no mention of Anselm in Runnymede (1999 Ed.)

[malcolm_raf]

Apologies John

My list in in Excel and I didn't have it sorted alphabetically at the time I took the copy.

I have Dickinson with 72 Sqn at the time of his death.

Malcolm

[dave bristol]

John,

My apologies, I intended to write Norman DICKINSON (615811) whose name appears in the GRO list with unit reference as HMT Anselm.

Whilst this addition would upset the total do we know where the figure of 175 casualties on Anselm comes from?

Another question is why do some names have the unit shown as Takoradi or 200 Sqdn?

I have a possible explanation but would like an independent second opinion.

bw

David Molyneux

[Dick]

Hi David
From Jefford-RAF Squadrons, 200 Sqn was based at Jeswang, with Hudsons, from June 41, with detachments at a number of places that included Takoradi. I don't recognise all the names but I guess they were W Africa.Takoradi ,as I am sure you know , was also a staging post for the supply of war materiel to the Middle and Far East incl. a/c, as an alternative to using the Med or going round the Cape in S Africa. A/c were delivered crated (sometimes also "on the hoof")and after assembly were flown across Middle Africa to the Sudan. There would have been a substantial need for servicing personnel both for the supply route and any Sqn that was based in the area. The annotations against the names that you have probably reflect the intended posting for the individual concerned.
Regards
Dick

[dennis_burke]

From Flight magazine archvies:
AC1 Robert MORRIS - 1379278; There is an AC2 R Morris listed DOAS Aug 14th magazine
AC2 Dennis SMITH - 1211608, an AC1 D Smith listed DOAS Oct 9th magazine.
LAC William P. WISE - 754393. also a DOAS listing.

Strangly both Morris and Smith are more or less the only AC x Class rank between 1939 and 1942 fo rthe RAF/RAFVR on CWGC with that surname and single initial R and D respectivly.

[malcolm_raf]

Hi Henk

Wise was drowned in the sea off Red Bank Road, Bispham near Blackpool whilst attempting to rescue a Margaret Shepherd.

Malcolm

[Henk Welting]

Thanks Malcolm for info on WISE.
Thanks Dennis to you as well for working on the backlog of DOAS/KOAS etc 1941. As agreed will not react on every thread to prevent new entries putting down on the board.
Regards,
Henk.

[scuber1122]

I am researching Aircraftsman Noel Spurrier , who I see is shown as lost when the Anselm was sunk - may I ask how to confirm he was lost on this ship as I cannot find mention elsewhere.

Any other information would be most usefull - I am aware his Father served in the Mercant Navy during WW1.

kind regards Bob

[malcolm_raf]

Hi Bob

Spurrier's unit is given as Anselm in the GRO lists, hence his inclusion in the list of those lost.

Malcolm

[scuber1122]

Hi Malcolm , forgive my ignorance but what is a GRO list ? is it something I can look up ?

regards Bob

[malcolm_raf]

Hi Bob

The GRO List in question was issued by the General Records Office (hence GRO) and lists the unit of all airmen for whom a Death Certificate cannot be issued by a UK Register Office. It therefore lists those airmen who were killed or died overseas or whose bodies were not found or recovered.

It is available on www.familyrelatives.com but this is a subscription service.

Malcolm

[scuber1122]

Malcolm - many thanks !

cheers Bob

[wwrsimon]

Hello

AC2 Dennis SMITH - 1211608 - the Lichfield Mercury of July 11th 1941 reported he following:

Motor-cyclist Killed
Fatal Collision at Shenstone
One airman was killed outright and another critically injured as the result of a motor collision on the Birmingham Road at Shenstone at about 1 p.m. on Friday. A motor lorry was being driven by Charles Wallace Samuel Walker, of 567 Holly Lane, Erdington, in the direction of Lichfield, and at the junction with Wall Lane a motor cycle came out, and a collision occurred. This resulted in the death of the cyclist, A/C 2 Dennis Smith, R.A.F., whose home address is 32, Fourfield Avenue, Coventry, whilst his pillion passenger, Douglas Charles Stevens, also of the R.A.F., received multiple injuries and is now detained in hospital.

Regards

Simon

[jonheyworth]

Robert Morris 1379278 , attached to Number 3 SOTT, died in the North Wales sanatorium, Denbigh, of pleurisy secondary to pulmonary tuberculosis