430403 - Unaccounted airmen - 3-4-1943

[Henk Welting]

What were the places of death registration for:

A - Died of wounds or injuries received on active service:
Sgt (Pilot) Edward T. DAWSON - 1504557.

B - Killed on active service:
F/Lt (Flying Instr.) George P. HALL - 48840.

C - Not found in Flight Global:
AC1 Jack RATCLIFFE - 1546766.

D - Died on active service:
Cpl William RODGERS - 531772.

E - Proposed aircraft losses:
Defiant I - DR868 - 289 Sqn - crashed in forced landing on beach, Stevenston, Ayrshire.
Defiant I - DR979 - 286 Sqn - bellylanded Weston-super-Mare.
Defiant II - AA542 - 515 Sqn - hit balloon barrage HMS Ganges, Shotley, Suffolk (already as a casualty on this a/c: F/Sgt [WOp/Ag] H.P. MOULE - 626121, who baled out).
Horsa I Glider - HG975 - 6 MU - crashed in forced landing on railway line 1 mile S of Kidlington.
Martinet I - HP263 - 61 OTU - crashed in forced landing on beach, Prestatyn, Flintshire.
Oxford I - DF465 - 11 (P)AFU - crashed on take-off at night 1 ile N of Shawbury.
Oxford I - BG653 - 15 (P)AFU - crashed on take-off at night Greenham Common.
Wellington I.C - DV727 - 7 (C)OTU - crashed on overshoot Limavady (already as casualties on this a/c: F/O [Pilot] E.H. SMITH - 111988 and Sgt [Pilot] R.G. COOPER - 1231921).

Regards and thanks for your help.
Henk.

[Dick]

Hi Henk
Dawson,21, registered at Wenlock, Shropshire. This might associate him with the crash of the Oxford at Shawbury but only if an attempt was made to take him to Cosford Hospital,otherwise Shawbury is a little far away
Hall,35, registered at Crewe, Cheshire
Rodgers,27, registered at Oxford.Could put him on the Horsa,HG975 at Kidlington. The airfield is now Oxford's Airport
Didn't find Ratcliffe
Regards
Dick

[malcolm_raf]

According to Cummings in 'Though without Anger' there were no casualties in HG975

Malcolm

[Theletterwriter]

Henk

AC1 Jack RATCLIFFE - 1546766 : aged 22 : Strathcathro, County of Angus, Scotland.

Best wishes

Douglas

[davew]

Henk

Hall possibly associated with Master W8507 at Wardle Bank, Calveley, which is in the Crewe reg. district. I have an uncredited note that another casualty was Haanes S.C.

regards

DaveW

[COL BRUGGY]

Henk,

Re: Oxford I BG653 - 15 (P)AFU.

I have on board this aircraft; AUS416412 Sgt Ronald Trevett CLARK RAAF. Probably solo, and injured. Location given as Newbury.

Col.

[Henk Welting]

Thanks all for your help.
Dave:For Master W8507 I've on file:
Sgt (Pilot/Instr.) Peter L. HOLDEN - 1525164 - died of injuries 11-4-1943, and
Sgt (Pilot u/t) Sigurd C. HAANES - (1-8-1913) - RNoAF - buried Oslo (Ullern Cem), Norway.
Regards,
Henk.

[davew]

Henk

Haanes and Hall are both on the same page of the register, 396. Holden is on page 399 which is to be expected as he died a week later. Thanks for the correction, hopefully we will learn about Hall presently.

BTW for those interested in these things the price of copy BMD certificates from the General Register Office has just shot up from £7.00 to £9.25 http://www.ips.gov.uk/cps/rde/xchg/ips_live/hs.xsl/1569.htm
Is this another example of attempting to reduce the demand for a service until the authorities can claim that there is insufficient demand to make continuation viable?

regards

DaveW

[thorne83]

Hi Henk, Dawson was solo pilot of DF465 which crashed at 3.40 am, but he was admitted to RAF Hospital, Cosford at 17.00 hrs and died soon after his admission.

Cheers, Tom

[Henk Welting]

Thanks Dave & Tom for additional info.
Regards,
Henk.

[alclark]

I have Hall as the instructor who died alongside Haanes from both the ORB and 1180, the following is the only entry in the 5 (P)AFU ORB that mentioned the accidents for April 1943.

April 1943, “Accidents for the month total 10 avoidable and 3 unavoidable - two accidents were fatal and resulted in the deaths of F/Lt G.P. Hall (48840), 1525263 Sgt P.L. Holden (Instructors) and 5269 Sgt Haanes (Norwegian pupil). The accident in which F/Lt G.P. Hall and Sgt Haanes were killed was investigated by S/Ldr R.A. Thompson of No.11 (P)AFU and Sgt Holden’s accident was investigated by S/Ldr E. Fulford of Headquarters, No.21 Group. All accidents occurred during the first eleven days of the month, and since then the Unit has been completely free of accidents.”

Holden was onboard T8879 which crashed at Barmere House, Norbury, Cheshire. The pupil was recorded on the 1180 as Sgt 1825 D.R. Wagtskold, who was injured. I am little suspicious over the spelling of the pupil's name.

[JohnE]

The pupil who was injured was:

Wagtskjold, Oluf Regnar (RNoAF)

/John

[Henk Welting]

Thanks Al & John; will amend my files. Some info on WAGTSKJOLD:
Fenrik Olaf Ragnar WAGTSKJOLD, born Bergen 14-7-1920, pilot of Spitfire PL214/A of 332 Sqn, was killed 28-2-1945 on interdiction mission of enemy gun positions. Hit by flak and struck tree tops along Oldenburgerallee and Waterweg (names of streets) twixt Putten (province Gelderland) and Nijkerk, 08.30 hrs. Initially buried at Putten his remains now rest at Solheim Cemetery, Bergen, Norway.
Regards,
Henk.

[jossleclercq]

Defiant II - AA542 - 515 Sqn - hit balloon barrage HMS Ganges, Shotley, Suffolk (already as a casualty on this a/c: F/Sgt [WOp/Ag] H.P. MOULE - 626121, who baled out).
Henk.

Hello,

Does anyone know the name of the pilot of the above Defiant ?

Also, can someone confirm that F/Sgt Hugh Parmenter MOULE 626121 is the same AC1 H.P. MOULE who is mentioned in "The Battle of France Then and Now", as the only survivor of Lysander II L6885 which crashed at Vieux-Condé (France) on 16th May 1940 ? Pilot T.H. BORG-BANKS and air gunner LAC W.F. LAWES were initially buried near the wreck of their Lysander, later reburied in the communal cemetery. Was is common to have a crew of 3 in a army cooperation Lysander ? (I'm not talking about SD).

TIA

Joss

[phill jones]

Martinet HP263 61 OTU , Non Fatal Crash although the Pilot wa Injured , Sgt GA Wells 1321767 (the G Could be a C 1180 hard to Read), Drouge towing , E/F at 200ft, Incorrect operation of fuel cockpit Levers .

bw phill jones

[Henk Welting]

Phill,
Thanks. I had C. WELLS. As TTO AC1 GARNER (no initials, no svcnr); both injured.
Regards,
Henk.

[Tim Bishop]

Henk,

Could you possibly confirm your reference for AC1 GARNER?

Kind regards,

Tim

[phill jones]

Hi Henk, Tim , The ORB for 61 OTU has the following to say Regarding Martinet HP 263,
3/4/43, Martinet HP 263 Crsd at Prestatyn Ranges , Apparently due to Engine Trouble

Sgt Wells & AC1 Garner ,Slightly Injured admitted to Hospital .

Sgt Wells must have been the Pilot and AC1 GARNER was the TTO ?

phill jones

[Tim Bishop]

Hi Phill,

Yes you have it bang on - any chance of a copy of that specific page of the ORB?

Thanks,

Tim

[phill jones]

Tim , i will PM YOU
Phill

[Jagan]

I have a question..

Working on Harvard losses in India, i have come across the loss of FE601 of 320MU at Drigh Road - resulting in the deaths of:

Flying Officer John Steele HIGGINS (139032) 1943-04-03 616 Sqdn Pakistan Karachi War Cemetery
Leading Aircraftman Albert Edward LINTON (1222596) 1943-04-03 Pakistan Karachi War Cemetery

Both the names are not presented at start of this thread - does it mean they were "Accounted For"? If so - Where?
(trying to find out if there is a database somewhere in an alternate universe)...

[wwrsimon]

Hello

AC1 Jack RATCLIFFE - 1546766 - the Statutory Deaths Register on the Scotland's People website records that he died at 10.30 p.m. at Stracathro Hospital due to burns and pulmonary oedema [heart failure]. No further details as to the circumstances.

Cpl William RODGERS - 531772 - no casualties listed for Horsa HG975 in Colin Cummings' 'Though Without Anger.' The Graves Registration Report Form lists his unit as 20 (P) A.F.U.

Regards

Simon

[jonheyworth]

William Charles Draycott 1210907 , attached to the RN repair depot at HMS Phoenix, was admitted seriously ill to Number 19 British general hospital on 16 March where he died of diptheria and para typhoid

[jonheyworth]

William Rogers 531772 , died at Kidlington in a cycling accident

[jonheyworth]

Jack Ratcliffe 1546766 , attached to Number 2 Flying Instructors School, was dangerously injured on 3 April when he tried to extinguish a fire when he poured inflammable liquid onto it believing it to be water. He was admitted to Strathcaro Hospital where he died of his burns