430625 - Unaccounted airmen - 25-6-1943

[Henk Welting]

What were the places of death registration for:

A - Not found in Flight Global:
Sgt (Pilot) NORRIS, Ronald S. - 1247258.

B - Killed on active service:
F/Lt (Flying Instr.) Terence F. PROCTER - 84661.

C - Died on active service:
LAC Eric W. TOMLINS - 1411631.

D - Proposed aircraft losses:
Lysander II - 4 Del Flt - T1527 - crashed on approach Fairwood Common.
Master I - T8766 - 53 OTU - crashed in forced landing near Market Drayton, Shropshire.
Master I - T8767 - 5 (P)AFU - crashed in forced landing Church Farm, Adderley, near Market Drayton, Shropshire.
Spitfire IIA - P8233 - 52 OTU - flew into ground near Keevil.
Master II - DL847 - 7 (P)AFU - crashed on landing Peterborough.
Oxford I - HN173 - 289 Sqn - flew into ground Garrowchorran Hill, Innellan, near Dunoon, Argyllshire (already as a casualty on this a/c: F/Sgt [Pilot] F. HUTCHINSON - 1058969).
Tiger Moth II - DE660 - 130 Sqn - crashed on take-off Ballyhalbert.

E - Also looking for cause of death of following airmen of 23 Sqn (Luqa, Malta); can't find a matching aircraft type/serial:
F/O Peter J. GLADMAN - 131761 - buried Catania War Cem., Sicily, and
F/Lt Gerald C.R. MOODY - 78846 - commemorated Panel 1 Column 6 of the Malta Air Forces Memorial.

Regards and thanks for your help.
Henk.

[AlanW]

Henk,
According to 23sqdn ORB, Moody and Gladman took off 02.25am, 25/06/43 in Mosquito HJ766, and failed to return from ops to Mazara, West Sicilly. Oddly enough, one site (ASN) claims this aircraft lost Sept 9th 43 in totally different circumstances.
Norris....Warminster, Dorset.
Tomlins....Lambeth.
Cannot find registration area for Procter, but he was with 32 EFTS at time of death.
Alan.

[COL BRUGGY]

Hi AlanW,

If I may ask. What does the 23 Sqn ORB have to say about the loss of the following 23 Sqn personnel on 10-9-1943? Is there a serial quoted?

132589 F/O Clive Jarvis BARBER RAFVR + Malta Memorial.
135276 F/O Philip Arthur STEVENS RAFVR + Malta Memorial.

Col.

[AlanW]

Hi Col,
Failed to return from ops to Viterbo, Grossetto. Took off 00.15hrs, 10/09/43, Mosquito HX802.
Alan.

[COL BRUGGY]

Hi Alan,

Thanks for that.

I presume the serial should read HX802. Could you confirm?

Col.

PS. Apologies, Henk.

[AlanW]

Hi Col,
Looks like you're right, typist a bit heavy on the key or too much ink on ribbon.

[Henk Welting]

Alan, Col,
What's the difference between HX802 in messages 4 and 5 ?
Final conclusion: Barber/Stevens on HX802 - Gladman/Moody on HJ766 ?
Regards,
Henk.

[AlanW]

Hi Henk,
Sorry for the confusion, i had originally put "NX802 for Barber/Stevens, but after a query from Col, looking at it more closely, it turned out as HX802.
And definatley HJ766 for Moody, (pilot) and Gladman, (Nav)

[Henk Welting]

Thanks Alan for confirmation.
Henk.

[dennis_burke]

Norris is KOAS list, Sept 9th magazine, the initial S. is damaged or obliterated from the page.

Where was 32 EFTS at this time? In relation to Procter. Could not find him in Scotland

[Henk Welting]

Dennis,
Sturtivant's "Flying Training and Support Units":
No.32 Elementary Flying Training School (Canada): 27.11.41 Bowden, Alberta (RLG at Netook).
No.32 Service Flying Training School (Canada): Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan.
No.32 Elementary & Reserve Flying Training School: Formed 15.4.39 at Greatham (West Hartlepool) in No.50 Group; disbanded 3.9.39.
Still obscure to me.
Henk.

[AL90]

Anson DG861- parts of the aircraft and crew fell on the service road between Thornbrook Farm , Maybole and also between the smallholdings and Deanmill Farm, Maybole.
The crew consisted of :-
P/O H.H Want, P/O H.K Daniel, LAC F.O Hogg, LAC A.G Hawes and W/O W.G Gorton.

Ooops sorry this was for the 19-04-42

[malcolm_raf]

Hi Henk

According to TSGNO, Proctor and Harris were in Cornell, 14412.

Malcolm

[dennis_burke]

So they were:
Lethbridge Herald - 5 July 1943
Killed on Active Service (in Canada)
LAC Stanley Harris London England
Fl Lt Terrence Flexman Procter RAF84661, Mrs T F Procter, (Wife) Innisfail, Alberta

his family must have had his remains repatriated. Buried in England.

All is not always what we expect.

[Bill Walker]

I can confirm that 14412 crashed on 25 June 1943, while with 32 EFTS, but I have no info on the crew.

[Bill Walker]

I can confirm that 14412 crashed on 25 June 1943, while with 32 EFTS, but I have no info on the crew.

Some confusion here on my part: just checked another source,and this block of Cornells was delivered in October 1943. Something is not adding up here.

And more confusion: a third source has the request to scrap 14412 dated July 1943. I can only assume some mix up in the delivery records. 14412 does look like the most likely aircraft for the 25 June 1943 crash.

[AL90]

Looked up Hutchinson on Scotlands people and he is recorded as Hutchison. Unfortunately he is the last record on the page therefore I can't find the names of the other crew.
The crash of Oxford HN173 is a new one for me as I thought we had that area completely covered and had visited and photographed every site.
Hutchison is buried at Salford (Weaste) cemetery where he originated from.

[Stuart_Moody]

I have been slowly accumulating information about my grand uncle who was in 23 Squadron and every now and then try and find info about the Squadron's ORB. Last week I had googled something like "23Sqdn ORB" and this time came upon your forum. What really caught my eye was that it was directed precisely at a thread containing the exact date of death of my grand uncle. Spooky...

My grand uncle was F/Lt GCR Moody, and I can confirm that the June date is correct for the loss of HJ766. I have also seen before HJ766 being listed as lost on 9th Sep 43. Somewhere at home, and I looked over the weeked but unsucessfully, I have the official letter to my great grandparents notifying them that their son was missing in action and I'm sure this date is before Septmeber. My father has always refered to his uncle losing his life in June 1943.

I put down this erroneous date as a date of possible official confirmation. The mission was overnight to Sicily as I had been told. Whatever the mission was it was deemed succesful as later photo reconnaisance showed. The mission was only a matter of about 2 weeks before the invasion of Sicily and yet the navigator was buried in Catania. I remember being told that the navigator was found washed up on Siciliy, so perhaps the body was found some weeks later after the invasion.

From the story that I was told there were other planes on the mission and they returned but there was a report of an electrical storm. It looks like the navigator bailed out but my grand uncle went down with the plane.

These details I haven't been able to co-oberate and therefore my interest in seeing the ORB to see if it fitted with the tale I was told. It may be that my grand father knew more than usual as he was also in the RAFVR, though based at Coningsby, I think.

My grand uncle learnt to fly privately in the mid-30s at the De Haviland School in Hatfield. I have a photograph of him by a Tiger Moth of the school, a plane that amazingly is still flying at the Tiger club in Kent, G-ACDC, I believe is the oldest Tiger Moth still flying in the UK. Also in the background is a Dragon Rapide G-ACPP in RAS colours. This RAS plane (City of Bristol) still survives too being restored in a Canadian museum. Amazing that both planes in the picture have survived for almost 80 years, though Hatfield Aerodrome sadly hasn't.

Being a trained pilot he was valuable to the pre and early war effort and was employed at White Waltham near Maidenhead to train incoming pilots. He wanted active service but it was a while before he was granted that. I have another photo of him astride the engine of a Hurricane with his crew standing in front and on the wing (which makes it a later model certainly) though I don't know for which squadron this would be.

So my grand uncle started and ended his flying life in De Haviland, from a DH82A to DH98 but I haven't got a lot of detail in between.

So if there is any info on his sorties with 23 squadron then I would be most grateful for help and any other info about GCR Moody (78846). Is the WW2 ORB for 23 Sqdn available online somewhere? Many thanks.

[AlanW]

Hi Stuart,
I have a copy of the 23sqdn ORB, and there will be no problem in sorting through it for the information you require. If you can contact me via my email address in my profile, i'll get back to you.
Alan.

[Stuart_Moody]

Hi Alan

Many thanks for that. I'll get back to you later.

Best regards

Stuart

[mhuxt]

Hi Alan,

Does the ORB have anything to say about a crew and their aircraft which were (I think) on 23 Squadron, as follows?

2 November 1943, G.B. Taylor and H. White both FTR.

Thanks in advance,

Mark

Edit - Blast, apologies, I meant to push my luck and also ask about the crew of Farrelly & Sabine, apparently lost 17 August 1943.

[AlanW]

Mark,
Files will be emailed sometime today
Al;an.

[mhuxt]

Many thanks for that Alan.

Cheers,

Mark

[mhuxt]

Many, many thanks for the info Alan, will respond in more detail over the email.

Cheers,

Mark

[mhuxt]

Hi Alan et al,

Just to complicate matters, the scans which Alan very kindly emailed me show HX802 as the aircraft lost on 2/3 November 1943, when F/O H. White and F/S G.B. Taylor failed to return from a road / strafe between Rome and Florence.

Cheers,

Mark

[COL BRUGGY]

Hello,

Take a look at the following:

http://www.oldrafrecords.com/about.php

Hit - RECORD LIST, then - SEARCH

Col.

[mhuxt]

Yow!

Thanks for that Col.

In reading further, the squadron diarist does mention that he'd been feeling under the weather in November ("sand fly fever" had apparently been making the rounds) and was relying on his squadron mates for information - very possibly finger trouble.

[AlanW]

Mark,
It's unfortunate that, somethings, such as ORB details, cannot be wholly trusted. On many occasions, i've found entries for aircraft serial numbers still being in use, long after they've actually been lost.

[mhuxt]

Hi Alan,

Yes indeed. I suppose ultimately one would have to check the aircraft movement cards, though I suppose errors can creep in there, too.

Cheers,

Mark

[wwrsimon]

Hello

Sgt (Pilot) NORRIS, Ronald S. - 1247258 - the Graves Registration Report Form gives his unit as 52 O.T.U., linking him to Spitfire P8233. Furthermore, the Wiltshire Times of July 3rd 1943 reported his funeral, which included the following:

In an old village church, not far from where he met with an accident the previous Friday, which resulted in his death, the funeral took place on Tuesday of Sergt. Ronald Samuel Norris, eldest son of Mr. and Mrs. Frank Norris, of Great Hinton.

F/Lt (Flying Instr.) Terence F. PROCTER - the Sussex Agricultural Express of July 2nd carried the following announcement:

PROCTER - In June, Flight Lieut. Terence Flexman Procter, R.A.F.V.R., of the firm of A. Procter and Son, Ltd., chemists, Eastbourne and Heathfield, killed in a flying accident while on service in Canada.

Additionally, the Eastbourne Herlad of October 23rd 1943 reported the following:

The funeral service and the interment of the ashes of Flight Lieut. Terence Flexman Procter will take place at Ocklynge Cemetery on Monday, October 25, at 3 p.m. The late Flight Lieut. Procter was killed in a flying accident in Canada, where he was acting as an instructor with the R.A.F.V.R.

LAC Eric W. TOMLINS - 1411631 - the Gloucester Citizen of June 29th 1943 reported the following, with a photo:

L.A.C. Eric Tomlins, son of Mrs. Mabel, and the late Mr. W. Tomlins, of 6, Moreton Cottages, Barton Street, who has died in King's College Hospital, London. An Old Centralian, he was employed by Messrs. Sessions and Sons, Ltd., before joining the R.A.F. in 1941.

Regards

Simon

[jonheyworth]

Eric William Tomlins 1411631 , attached to Number 78 Signals Wing, was admitted dangerously ill to the Carsholton EMS hospital on 29 May. Transferred to the university college hospital at Denmark Hill , london, where he died of lymphatic lukaemia

[jonheyworth]

Victor Augustus Gallon 48001 , fell 20 feet from a balcony into the street when drunk and died of a fractured skull in Number 64 General hospital

[jonheyworth]

Charles Randle Harrison 1006518 , died in Number 10 CCS of lobar pneumonia

[jonheyworth]

Joseph Whitter 1107515 , died of pulmonary tuberculosis