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Thread: Bristol Blenheim anomalies

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    Default Bristol Blenheim anomalies

    As some may have noticed, I have been reading Graham Warner's Bristol Blenheim opus (2nd Edition). It really is a fine book and an interesting read.
    However, there are quite a lot of anomalies in the serial listings. A few are listed below. I appreciate that the loss of records may have caused a lot of these "problems", but it would be nice to resolve even one or two of them.
    I'm not expecting anyone to put hours of effort into these by the way, but I thought it might be worth highlighting some of the discrepancies. I will no doubt have some more in the future.
    Thanks,
    Andy

    L4827 – Warner and the serial database say it was a IV. I thought it was a I?
    L4864 – listed as lost 107 Sqn 24 Apr 40, and as lost 53 Sqn 16 May 40
    L8529 – Warner says lost with 13 (H) Sqn on 7 May 42; ABN serials book says SOC 223 Sqn 25 Jun 42. Plus AIR81/1021 which says lost 5 Jul 40…
    L8538 – lost with 45 Sqn on 4 Feb 41 (some sources say it was L8530) – L8538 was SOC 30 Sqn 1 Jan 44?
    L9307 – the ORB reports Z9307 (not valid) as lost with 14 Sqn on 11 May 41. Was it L9307?
    V5388 – FTR on 3 Jan 42 whilst with 34 Sqn (Warner says 2 Jan 42). He also says V5388 was DBR in an air-raid on Butterworth on 8 Dec 41, together with V5381, Z5799 and V5633 which had belly-landed earlier. Was there another machine lost in the Butterworth raid, or?....
    V5589 - listed first as lost with 60 Sqn on 9 Dec 41, then with 113 Sqn on 9 Sep 42 (photo caption P574). In the Appendix on P583, the loss is said to be V5938, but the crew details don’t match with the database. The 60 Sqn loss is discussed here: http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/sho...qn-8-9-12-1941
    Z7799 – listed first as DBR in crash landing at Palembang, Borneo on 16 Jan 42, then as destroyed in air raid at P1 Sumatra on 7 Feb 42.

    Unknown aircraft
    34 Sqn - MIA 20 Jan 42 – in ORB as L1414, which was lost on 1 Jan 42. Discussed earlier at:
    http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?3862-34-Squadron-casualties-Dec-1941-to-end-Feb-1942

    113 Sqn – second loss on 25 May 42, additional to Z9751. Warner quotes “L9765” which isn’t valid.
    211 Sqn – second loss on 13 Feb 42, additional to Z9829. If Don doesn’t know, I guess no-one does….

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    Default Re: Bristol Blenheim anomalies

    While we are at it,

    I have the following recorded as Blenheim deaths in the CWGC Unaccounted DB without a serial number. Any help is appreciated.





    uqid Date SURNAME Service No Rank Country
    59711 1941-06-27 Blenheim BULLOCH JOHN 743063 Flight Sergeant Syria
    104619 1941-08-01 Blenheim I RAMSAY ALISTAIR STEWART 88659 Pilot Officer Italy
    86993 1941-12-04 Blenheim KIDBY ROBERT GEORGE 1157291 Sergeant Italy
    59811 1941-12-04 Blenheim BURCHER LESLIE JAMES 919091 Sergeant Italy
    98033 1941-12-19 Blenheim McLEVY ALFRED 809126 Sergeant Malta
    58865 1941-12-19 Blenheim BROWN CEDRIC TYSON 404197 Sergeant Malta
    104973 1941-12-19 Blenheim READ ARTHUR THOMAS 84674 Flying Officer Malta
    54785 1941-12-20 Blenheim BAYFORD CHARLES SYDNEY HERBERT 903502 Flight Sergeant Libya
    95593 1941-12-20 Blenheim MORT CYRIL STANTON 956840 Sergeant Libya
    109978 1941-12-20 Blenheim SHERRATT THOMAS WILLIAM 751294 Sergeant Libya
    59741 1941-12-20 Blenheim BUMSTEAD CHARLES HAROLD R/56174 Warrant Officer Class II Libya
    80310 1941-12-22 Blenheim HENLEY ROY FREDERICK JOSEPH 1253157 Sergeant Egypt
    101276 1941-12-22 Blenheim PARSONS HAROLD FREDERICK DOLLAND 1151990 Sergeant Libya
    66496 1941-12-22 Blenheim DARCY DESMOND PHILIP 998985 Sergeant Libya
    103706 1941-12-24 Blenheim I POYNTER DICK MIDDLETON 39933 Flight Lieutenant United Kingdom
    101597 1941-12-24 Blenheim PAUL ISAAC 102610 Pilot Officer Malta
    63959 1941-12-24 Blenheim I CONSTABLE WILLIAM RONALD 101504 Pilot Officer United Kingdom
    119714 1941-12-24 Blenheim I WATSON RONALD FREDERICK 1175044 Aircraftman 1st Class United Kingdom
    58763 1941-12-24 Blenheim I BROOM THOMAS 1105527 Aircraftman 2nd Class United Kingdom
    92615 1941-12-26 Blenheim MARSHALL WILLIAM CHARLES 920238 Sergeant Malta
    114203 1941-12-26 Blenheim SUMMERS OSWALD COLIN 1177035 Sergeant Malta
    56114 1941-12-26 Blenheim BILLETT JAMES FORD 1051615 Sergeant Malta
    97553 1942-02-13 Blenheim McINERNEY THOMAS TAYLOR 407273 Flying Officer Australia
    97675 1942-07-04 Blenheim McKECHNIE JOHN KENNETH J/6179 Pilot Officer India
    96009 1942-08-19 Blenheim MULLIGAN DENNIS 142259 Air Mechanic Kenya
    61287 1942-08-20 Blenheim CARROLL JOHN ALAN 101367 Air Mechanic Kenya
    108059 1943-01-30 Blenheim SAINSBURY POPHAM 414389 Flying Officer Tunisia
    102564 1943-01-30 Blenheim PHILLIPS CECIL HENRY WALTER 1312445 Sergeant Tunisia
    86744 1943-01-30 Blenheim KENNY MATTHIAS FRANCIS 1126351 Sergeant Tunisia
    24359 1944-08-19 Blenheim JULSKI TADEUSZ P/782478 Starszy Sierzant United Kingdom
    Last edited by Jagan; 24th January 2021 at 21:01.

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    Default Re: Bristol Blenheim anomalies

    19/08/1944 Blenheim AZ890 12 (P) AFU (from AM Form 1180)

    Regards

    PeteT
    Main areas of research:

    - CA Butler and the loss of Lancaster ME334 (http://rafww2butler.wordpress.com/ )
    - Aircrew Training (Basic / Trade / Operational / Continuation / Conversion)
    - The History of No. 35 Squadron (1916 - 1982) (https://35squadron.wordpress.com/)

    [Always looking for copies of original documents / photographs etc relating to these subjects]

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    Default Re: Bristol Blenheim anomalies

    McKECHNIE

    Blenheim V6465 http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=V6465

    Letter from 927096 Sgt W. Turner to Officer Commanding, RAF Station New Delhi 7 July 1942.

    Jagan, P/O McKechnie born Etawah, India 12 February 1912.

    Regards,

    Dave

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    Default Re: Bristol Blenheim anomalies

    Jagan

    For the crash on 24/12/41 I have Poynter, Broom, Constable, and Watson, lost with L9313 of 254 Squadron At Pitmedden Church, Aberdeenshire

    For the 19/8/44 I have a note of AZ890 of 12 PAFU lost at Melton Mowbray which will account for Julski; Warner does not mention a fatality but Julski's death is registered at Melton Mowbray Sept 1944

    Warner's Blenheim 2002
    Free BMD

    regards

    DaveW

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    Default Re: Bristol Blenheim anomalies

    #1
    L4827 Mark IV To 60 Sqn
    One of 84 Mark IVs L4823-L4926 del Mar-Jul 39 Contract 529181/36
    (with 34 Mark Is under same contract, L4817-L4822, L4907-L4934)
    Summarising Halley RAF Aircraft L1000-N9999 (AB 93)*, quite reliable, in absence of o/l access to RAF Museum AM Form 78 +/or Del Records
    https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/researc...t-records.aspx

    *And which you have...

    L9307 v Z9307 14 Sqn: So see above - not L9307 if Halley's summary correct lost 34 Sqn 29 Jun 42
    Gunby & Temple RAF Bomber Losses etc record
    no 14 Sqn loss 11 May 41, in any edn/corrn


    13 Feb 42 2nd loss 211 Sqn Blenheim IV id
    Get back to you. If I know, it'll be on site.
    Last edited by Don Clark; 23rd January 2021 at 20:09.
    Toujours à propos

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    Default Re: Bristol Blenheim anomalies

    To answer Andy's Original post:

    L4827 – Warner and the serial database say it was a IV. I thought it was a I?
    Bruce Robertson's "British Military Aircraft Serials 1911-1979". And he states for the set L4817-4934 -118 Blenheim I/IV Notes: L4823-4906 - Mk IV. remainder Mk1
    AB serials L series book also confirms the same - L4823-4906 - Mk IV

    V5589 - listed first as lost with 60 Sqn on 9 Dec 41, then with 113 Sqn on 9 Sep 42 (photo caption P574). In the Appendix on P583, the loss is said to be V5938, but the crew details don’t match with the database.
    Checked up the sources.

    Blenheim IV V5938
    Flying Officer Owen Lawrence LOANE (402514)
    Flight Sergeant Robin Edgell BARNARD (404464)
    Flight Sergeant Thomas BELL (402184)

    last two wrongly recorded against Blenheim IV V6507 (now fixed)

    https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/Sear...7&S=71&T=P&R=0 Cas Telegram
    NA ORB https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...mageViewerLink Page 42

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    Default Re: Bristol Blenheim anomalies

    V5589 - listed first as lost with 60 Sqn on 9 Dec 41, then with 113 Sqn on 9 Sep 42 (photo caption P574).

    Aus Cas file is quite sure the aircraft lost by 113 Sqn on 9/9/1942 was V5589
    https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/Sear...59509&T=P&S=85

    Crew
    Sgt John Phibbs Ferguson REID 404362
    Sgt P K WILSON (Obs) 1252303
    Sgt L A WHITE (WOps/AG) 1262420


    So I guess the 60 Sqdn loss for 9 Dec 1941 is now suspect.


    Flight Lieutenant Joseph Adlington Ballantyne DOBSON (39597)
    Sergeant Ernest Frederick William FOWLER (537770)
    Flight Sergeant George Robert SMITH (562896)

    AIR 81 says V5931 http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=V5931
    But also provides a clue to a V5598 http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=V5598

    -------------------------------------------------------

    AIR81/10852
    Blenheim V5931,aircraft shot down and crashed near Singora, Siam, 34 Squadron, 9 Dec 41
    Flight Lieutenant J A B Dobson,
    Sergeant G W Smith,
    Sergeant E F W Fowler;
    All missing believed killed; http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...ate=1941-12-09 incorrectly linked to V5589

    AIR81/10852
    Blenheim V5598, aircraft shot down and crashed near Singora, Siam, 34 Squadron, 11 December 1941.
    Sergeant A Mc Johnstone,
    Flying Officer P N Kingwill,
    Sergeant G W Gregory: prisoners of war:

    AIR81/10863
    Blenheim L4829, shot down, aerial combat near Khota Bharu, Malaya, 60 Squadron, 8 December 1941;
    Flight Lieutenant G P Westopp-Bennett,
    Sergeant R A Webb,
    Flight Sergeant R J H Pyle: missing believed killed;
    Correctly linked to http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...ame=&serialno=

    AIR81/10863
    Blenheim V5598 (Incorrect as the proposed serial is L4913), shot down, aerial combat near Khota Bharu, Malaya, 60 Squadron, 8 December 1941
    Flight Lieutenant W E Bowden, (POW)
    Pilot Officer W A B Logan (RAAF),
    Sergeant R L Clarke: missing believed killed;
    Correctly linked to http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=L4913 L4913
    Last edited by Jagan; 23rd January 2021 at 20:07.

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    Default Re: Bristol Blenheim anomalies

    Re Post #1 and
    Re Post #2 T McInerney 407273

    211 Sqn 13 Feb 1942 losses
    No 1942 Operations Record Book survived the NEI disaster
    but see 1942 Ops compilation ex Log Books, diaries, letters, cas reports at http://www.211squadron.org/1942.html

    And the two Blenheim IV aircraft:
    Z9829 the apparent a/craft id, Mackay Oddie Payne killed on forced landing.
    Scant remains found in jungle 1967 and interred as u/k airman Lutwyche, a sensitive point for family, who are close friends.
    See http://www.211squadron.org/bristol_b...v__.html#Z9829
    and see http://www.211squadron.org/nh_oddie.html#13Feb1942 esp a/craf id exp.

    Z???? id unrecorded in any source to hand (personnel files inc cas signals, cas reports; nor RAAF loss cards).
    Apparently of the Z series, as virtually all the Sqn 1942 a/craft were.
    Lost on ditching Banka Strait, Chalmers and Kendrick later rescued, McInerney lost on ditching.
    See http://www.211squadron.org/bristol_b...l#ChalmersCrew
    and see http://www.211squadron.org/gm_kendrick.html#Ditching

    Overall 13 Feb action summary:
    http://www.211squadron.org/rn_bateso...html#13Feb1942

    Overall Far East 1942, Sumatra Java accounts see
    http://www.211squadron.org/the_far_east.html
    and
    http://www.211squadron.org/rn_bateson_dfc.html#FarEast
    and
    http://www.211squadron.org/sumatra___java.html




    Finding material on my 211 Squadron website:
    Broad look: see Site Summary http://www.211squadron.org/site_summary.html and/or
    See also site pages menu, LHS, all pages, lists all pages.

    Exact search: (eg Date, Name, Service no, A/craft serial, place) try
    "your search" site:www.211squadron.org
    in whatever engine you prefer: Bing, DDG & OneSearch are all useful, the latter 2 least intrusive.
    On page search: Ctrl F your text


    211 Squadron 1940-1942 Blenheim I and Blenheim IV
    My Blenheim I and Blenheim IV pages give as complete account of 211 Sqn a/craft & losses as I've so far (1998-2021) been able to compile, reconciling a great many records, mostly back to source (ie not simply blind copying printed works). There may be one or two a/craft histories still possible to add and there may yet, as ever, be corrections to be made.
    Blenheim I: http://www.211squadron.org/bristol_blenheim_i.html
    Blenheim IV: http://www.211squadron.org/bristol_blenheim_iv__.html

    I answer posts the way I do, thinking that by "showing my workings" both the OP and other readers now and later may see useful, checkable info, and about how and where to look further, in future, on other topics.
    The complexities apparent in this thread are sufficient rebuff to the terse "I have XYZ" style of reply.

    The price I pay for writing and keeping my 211 Squadron history the way I do is not only sombre reflection on all the men lost
    but also the attention required to address the endless tide of site plunderers, great and small,
    who plagiarise text (a breach of copyright) and copy images (a breach of courtesy and site use conditions)
    with no acknowledgement and almost invariably abusive indignation when addressed.

    This cost I carry out of respect for the hard service and heavy loss of ordinary men doing far from ordinary things in dire times, some number of whom I have been fortunate to know.
    Last edited by Don Clark; 24th January 2021 at 00:58.
    Toujours à propos

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    Default Re: Bristol Blenheim anomalies

    Gents,
    Thanks to all for the input, and nice to see that Jagan has solved some of his problems. See below for some more answers.
    Don, I always enjoy reading your messages as they are always helpful. My reference to you in the query was as a result of consulting your excellent 211 Sqn website, where the second loss of 13 Feb 42 is indeed shown as unknown. However, I do take slight issue with your throw-away line "The complexities apparent in this thread are sufficient rebuff to the terse "I have XYZ" style of reply." Sadly many of us, and I am most definitely one, just do not have the depth of knowledge required to be able to answer queries so comprehensively. Speaking personally, I have no specific interest in the Blenheim, but have simply highlighted some anomalies in the hope that others more interested might have their attention drawn to them, and in some cases be able to solve them. If nothing else, the relevant serials will appear if future users search for them in the serials database on this site. I cannot offer much more than "I have it as...". Are you saying that should disqualify me from posting anything?

    Anyway, let's move on. Firstly regarding L4827, where it was said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Clark View Post
    #1
    L4827 Mark IV To 60 Sqn
    One of 84 Mark IVs L4823-L4926 del Mar-Jul 39 Contract 529181/36
    (with 34 Mark Is under same contract, L4817-L4822, L4907-L4934)
    Summarising Halley RAF Aircraft L1000-N9999 (AB 93)*, quite reliable, in absence of o/l access to RAF Museum AM Form 78 +/or Del Records
    https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/researc...t-records.aspx

    *And which you have...
    I still have some problems with this one, because Turkey received 10 Blenheims in September 1939, which were flown out. They only operated Mk I Blenheims until November 1942, when three ex RAF Mk IVs were acquired.
    The 10 Blenheims delivered in September 1939 were L1483, L1485, L1488, L1489, L1493, L1497, L4821, L4824, L4826, L4828 (every source I can find agrees on these ten). So I conclude that L4824, L4826, L4828 were also Mk Is. This therefore puts L4827 in the frame for also being a Mk I.
    Further to that, L4829 also seems to have been a Mark I. See the photo on Page 543 of Warner (Edition 2) – the serial is just about legible.

    Finally, looking at your list Jagan:
    4 Dec 41 was Z7775: http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=Z7775
    20 Dec 41 was T2394: http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=T2394
    22 Dec 41 was Z7915 of 107 Sqn: Warner, page 520
    26 Dec 41 was Z7796: http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=Z7796

    I have some more anomalies which I will add at a later date.
    Andy

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