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Thread: The Great Escape List Accuracy

  1. #11
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    Default Re: The Great Escape List Accuracy


  2. #12
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    Default Re: The Great Escape List Accuracy

    Peter
    I am a little confused as to what ETO PoW sheet is, but of the airmen mentioned F/LT A Kiewnarski – not on List.; F/O A W Kolanowski – not on List.; F/O Tobolski – not on List. might be confirmed as PoWs and executed by Germans.
    Franek
    https://www.facebook.com/Franciszek-Grabowski-241360809684411/

  3. #13
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    Default Re: The Great Escape List Accuracy

    Franek, Hello,
    The ETO POW sheet is a Google-sheet which Jagan produced. Its purpose is to try to collate/rationalise all the Air Forces' POWs in ETO. It is currently "work in progress"! It started (I think!) by transferring Ross' original Forum POW list to the s/sheet. There have been a considerable number of additions/corrections since then - and continuing.
    I am not concerned so much with the list of those executed after The Great Escape - that is well known. I am trying to work out why those Officers (subsequently executed) did not appear on the Forum POW list - when they clearly were POWs! And - more worrying - how many more "hidden" POWs are there?
    My aim is to gradually work my way into this conumdrum and to hope - with the help of experts like yourself - to rationalise the anomalies!
    It may keep us out of trouble for some time??!!!
    Peter Davies
    Meteorology is a science; good meteorology is an art!
    We might not know - but we might know who does!

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    Default Re: The Great Escape List Accuracy

    We go back to a note that I made in the original transcription that survives in the header on the old pages and the new pages here - but has been omitted on other sites where the original transcription was scraped.

    "Camps and names are generally correct for March/April 1944 with some entries being correct upto February 1945."

    "On 15 April (17 April in some sources) the new senior British officer, Group Captain Douglas Wilson (RAAF), surreptitiously passed a list of these names to an official visitor from the Swiss Red Cross.[33]
    .....
    The British government learned of the deaths from a routine visit to the camp by Swiss authorities as the protecting power in May; the Foreign Secretary Anthony Eden announced the news to the House of Commons on 19 May 1944.[34][35] Shortly afterwards the repatriated Massey arrived in Britain and briefed the Government regarding the fate of the escapees. Eden updated Parliament on 23 June, promising that, at the end of the war, those responsible would be brought to exemplary justice.[36]"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalag_Luft_III

    As a live list of PoWs at a specific point in time it was updated and redacted during the period to mirror those known to be held - those killed/died in captivity/escaped/evaded were removed from the AIR20 list by Authority.

    Ross
    The Intellectual Property contained in this message has been assigned specifically to this web site.
    Copyright Ross McNeill 2015 to 2021 - All rights reserved.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: The Great Escape List Accuracy

    Ross,
    Mni tks the explanation. Very much appreciated. It explains a lot of which, I think, most of us were unaware.
    So the task looks like 'un-removing' and/or 'un-redacting' that which was removed. A fearsome task!
    The more I deal with this project the more I become convinced that likening it to Augean Stables (as I did early on!) will turn out to be not too far from the truth!!
    But we will prevail!!
    Peter Davies
    Meteorology is a science; good meteorology is an art!
    We might not know - but we might know who does!

  6. #16
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    Default Re: The Great Escape List Accuracy

    Hello All,
    I have found the details of the “missing” Great Escape survivors. They have been added at the bottom of the Google-sheet and will appear in their right alphabetical places when Jagan does the next routine update re-order.
    I’m missing a few details if anybody has got them to hand:
    GOUWS, Johannes S?????, J S, Lt, SAAF, 40 Sqdn, 103275
    SCHEIDHAUER, Bernard W????? M?????, B W M, Lt, FFAF, 131 Sqdn, ?????
    SKANTZIKAS, Sotirios, S, Plt Off, RHAF, 336 Sqdn, ?????
    STEVENS, Rupert J?????, R J, Lt, SAAF, 12(SAAF) Sqdn, 47431

    I also propose (if Jagan, et al), are willing?) to include:
    DODGE, John Bigelow, J B, Maj, Army
    NEELY Alexander D?????, A D, Lt, RN, 825 Sqdn FAA, ?????
    POYNTER, Douglas A?????, D A, Lt, RN, 825 Sqdn FAA, ?????

    Dodge was, apparently and effectively, “Happy” Day’s Admin 2 i/c and, thus, an important part of camp life and The Escape. The Luftwaffe had, apparently, made a deliberate admin mistake to make him ‘honorary RAF’! His life/times is worth 10 mins of your time reading up anywhere!!
    Ditto the 2 RN aviators from 825 Sqn FAA. Don’t know what/why they were in an RAF POW camp – but somebody might!! Probably one of those complex tales which if it took place today you wouldn’t believe??
    HTH
    Peter Davies
    Meteorology is a science; good meteorology is an art!
    We might not know - but we might know who does!

  7. #17
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    Default Re: The Great Escape List Accuracy

    Peter

    The two F.A.A. aircrew:

    POYNTER - Sturtivant's FAA Airccraft 1939-1945 has him in Swordfish L9756, FTR Trondheim 22.9.40 (S/L H Deterding, S/L DA Poynter & NA HW Brown all PoW). Probably the Swordfish that force-landed at Vestran Farm, Leka, NE of Trondhiem.

    NEELY - same source has him in an unidentified Swordfish that FTR from a bombing raid over France 25.5.40 (Lt AD Neely & Lt RG Wood PoW, NA VSA Moore recovered, also pilot S/L JT Nicholson PoW).

    Some details on the four for whom you're missing details here: http://aircrewremembered.com/stalag-...the-fifty.html

    Regards

    Simon
    Last edited by wwrsimon; 5th April 2021 at 14:36.
    Researching R.A.F. personnel from the North East of England

  8. #18
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    Default Re: The Great Escape List Accuracy

    Simon,
    Mni tks dat. Lot of good data. Will plough through and update line entries for individuals if/when! This - he said definitively - is A Forth Bridge Painting project!! But unless we extract the 'little bits' and put them together in the right order/place/time a lot of history will be lost.
    Take care
    Peter Davies
    Meteorology is a science; good meteorology is an art!
    We might not know - but we might know who does!

  9. #19
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    Default Re: The Great Escape List Accuracy

    Hello Peter

    Full names for SCHEIDHAUER, is Bernard William Martial Scheidhauer flying Spitfire EN830, captured on 18 November 1942 in Jersey, Channel Islands.

    There is an excellent article in a local history publication 'PILOT OFFICER SCHEIDHAUER - THE FORCED LANDING AND "THE GREAT ESCAPE"' by lan Le Sueur, Channel Islands Occupation Review No.27, pp71-79, printed 1999. Whilst the article doesn't mention EN830, I understand the Spitfire was recovered and made airworthy again and fitted with a Daimler-Benz engine.

    Kind regards
    Pierre

  10. #20
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    Default Re: The Great Escape List Accuracy

    Pierre,
    Brilliant! We have nearly got a "full house" of detailed data for those on The Great Escape!
    I should be grateful. But there is a slight problem.
    I now have:
    SCHEIDHAUER, Bernard William Marshal, B W M, 1942-11-18, Lt, FFAF, 131 Sqdn, 30649, Grt Esc execute 1944-03-29, 832, EN830.
    You have him as Plt Off. So was he a Plt Off in the RAF at the time of his capture, but reverted (by some arcane administrative action) to be a Lt in the FFAF whilst in "The Cage", so that when he exited it on The Escape he was a French Lt? I keep saying, I have no axe(s) to grind. I just want to get it right! Our children/grandchildren will utter rude words (in English and French!) when they come to write their 1st Degree Dissertations (or subsequent degree Theses!!) if they find we have not taken sufficient care over a few hundred thousand WW2 details!!!!
    I would prefer not to be called to account!!!!!!!!!!
    Peter Davies
    Meteorology is a science; good meteorology is an art!
    We might not know - but we might know who does!

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