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Thread: The Great Escape List Accuracy

  1. #1
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    Default The Great Escape List Accuracy

    Hello All,
    The RAFM has just released a post on their website (https://www.facebook.com/rafmuseum/p...59075819447612) in the name of Gp Capt Massey (SBO of whatever camp) announcing the deaths of 50 Officers who participated in The Great Escape. The notice is dated 29 Mar 44. I have not, yet, checked the list against our list(s).
    For those with FB is this list (a) accurate, and (b) do their entries in the ETO POW Google-sheet need to be so annotated?
    Also, as far as I can see, there is no Gp Capt Massey on the s/sheet. Please can I have Forename(s), s/n, and date/place/circumstances of his entry into “The Bag”?
    I’m not trying to nit-pick, but how many others are “not on the current lists”. I have no axe(s) to grind – except that of accuracy!
    TIA
    Peter Davies
    Meteorology is a science; good meteorology is an art!
    We might not know - but we might know who does!

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    Default Re: The Great Escape List Accuracy

    Peter

    This chap?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Massey

    Regards

    Simon
    Researching R.A.F. personnel from the North East of England

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    Default Re: The Great Escape List Accuracy

    Simon,
    Mni tks! Looks like him!
    The reason I posted was because he did not seem to appear of the various lists of ETO POWs. I was curious. However, yr clip seems to have the answer in that he was an early medical Repat. I wish I could lay my hands on the manifests of those Repat ships!!!!
    Take care.
    Peter Davies
    Meteorology is a science; good meteorology is an art!
    We might not know - but we might know who does!

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    Default Re: The Great Escape List Accuracy

    Please forgive me if I am wrong, but somewhere in the recesses of my mind I think it was Massey who informed the UK Government about those who were shot. I believe that Churchill made reference to Massey when the murders were announced in the Commons. Again, I may be wrong. Do not take this as gospel.
    Best wishes
    James

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    Default Re: The Great Escape List Accuracy

    Peter, and James

    His arrival back after repatriation was reported in the Derby Daily Telegraph of June 26th 1944, and the report includes the following:

    "Group Captain Herbert M. Massey, of the R.A.F., who was senior officer st Stalag Luft III, where 50 R.A.F. officers were shot there by the Germans, and who was recently repatriated...was mentioned by Mr. Anthony Eden in the House of Commons as being one of the officers who recounted to the Foreign Office the facts preceding the shootings."

    Regards

    Simon
    Researching R.A.F. personnel from the North East of England

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    Default Re: The Great Escape List Accuracy

    Hello All – this one is a cracker, and is further to my original post!!
    The other day the RAFM put up on their website a list of those subsequently executed after the Great Escape (https://www.facebook.com/rafmuseum/p...9075819447612/). This list was, apparently, brought out by Gp Capt Massey when he was early Repat. It must have been smuggled(?) – i.e written on the back of a fag-packet and pushed down a sock(?). I looked at the list. I was intrigued. There were a lot of names of ETO POW I had not seen before (I have become quite familiar with the contents of the Google-sheet!!) . Logic dictates that if they were executed after The Great Escape, they must have been POW before The Great Escape.
    The names of the executed are below (on the left). To each one’s right is the result of checking them against the ETO POW s/sheet.
    There are errors, omissions, anomalies, and uncertainties. But nearly 50% of the names on the executed list do not appear on the s/sheet!! Very strange?
    Before I go off chasing wild geese up gum-trees trying to find the missing persons can somebody assure me that I have not missed something blindingly obvious??

    P/O N Birkland – the POW list has Flt Lt Henry Birkland, 72 Sqdn, RAF (J/5233??)
    F/LT E G Brettell – not on rafcommands POW List.
    F/O L Bull – Plt Off Leslie George Bull, 109 Sqn, RAF, (43932).
    S/L R J Bushell – Sqn Ldr Roger Joyce Bushell, 92 Sqn, RAF (?????).
    F/LT N J Casey – Fg Off Michael James Casey, 57 Sqn, RAF (39024).
    S/L J Catanach – not on List.
    P/O A G Christensen – not on List.
    P/O D H Cochran – not on List.
    S/L L K P Cross – Sqn Ldr Ian Kingston Pembroke Cross, 103 Sqn, RAF (39305).
    F/O H Espelid – Lt Haldor Espelid, 331 Sqn, RNoAF (378).
    F/O B H Evans – Plt Off Brian Herbert Evans, 49 Sqn, RAF (42745).
    P/O N Fuglesang – not on List.
    LT J S Gouws – Lt J???? S???? Gouws, 40 Sqn, SAAF, ((?????).
    P/O W J Grisman – Plt Off William Jack Grisman, 109 Sqn, RAF (45148).
    P/O A Gunn – Fg Off Alastair Donald Mackintosh Gunn, 1 PRU, RAF (60340).
    P/O A H Hake – not on List.
    P/O C P Hall – Flt Lt Charles Piers Hall, 1 PRU, RAF (50896).
    F/LT A H Hayter – Flt Lt Anthony Ross Henzell Hayter, 148 Sqn, RAF (42124).
    P/O E S Humphreys – Flt Lt Edgar Spottiswoode Humphreys, 107 Sqn, RAF (44177).
    P/O G A Kidder – not on List.
    F/O R V Kierath – not on List.
    F/LT A Kiewnarski – not on List.
    S/L T C Kirby-Green – Sqn Ldr Thomas Gresham Kirby-Green, 40 Sqn, RAF (39103).
    F/O A W Kolanowski – not on List.
    F/O Krol – Flt Lt Stanislaw Zygmunt Krol, 74 Sqn, PAF (P0237).
    F/LT P W Langford – not on List.
    P/O T B Leigh – not on List.
    F/LT Long – the only Long, Officer, POWs on the List are:- Plt Off James Leslie Robert Long, 9 Sqn, RAF (89375), and Plt Off Samuel Godfrey Long, 119 Sqn, RAF (70406).
    F/L C A N McGarr – Lt Clement Aldwyn Neville McGarr, 2(SAAF)Sqn, SAAF (95651).
    P/O G E McGill – Plt Off G???? E???? McGill, 103 Sqn, RCAF (J/?????).
    F/O R Marcinkus – Plt Off Romualdas Marcinkus, 1 Sqn, RAF (89580).
    P/O H J Milford – not on List.
    P/O J T Mondschein – Fg Off Jerzy Tomasz Mondschein, 303 Sqn, PAF? (P0913).
    F/O K Pawluk – Fg Off Kasimierz Pawluk, 305 Sqn, RAF?, (?????)
    F/O H A Picard – not on List.
    F/O P P J Pohe – not on List.
    F/O P W M Scheidhauer – not on List.
    P/O S Skanziklas – not on List.
    F/LT C D Swain – Flt Lt Cyril Douglas Swain, 105 Sqn, RAF (37658).
    LT A J Stevens – (vaguely!) 2/Lt F???? L???? Stevens, 5(SAAF)Sqn, SAAF (?????).
    P/O R C Stewart – Plt Off Ralph Caie Stewart, ? Unit, RAF (176728).
    F/O J G Stower – not on List.
    F/O D O Street – not on List.
    F/O Tobolski – not on List.
    P/O E Valenta – Plt Off Arnost Valenta, 311 Sqn, RAF (82532) (Czech)
    F/O G W Walenn – Fg Off Gilbert William Walenn, 25 OTU, RAF (73022).
    F/O J C Wernham – not on List.
    F/O G W Wiley – Fg Off George William Wiley, 112 Sqn, RCAF (J/7234).
    S/L J E A Williams – no J x x Williams, Officer, POW
    P/O J F Williams – only possible 741584 Sgt John Frederick Williams, 61 Sqn, RAF (POW 1940-12-08).

    It is possible that some of their Luftwaffe POW records were removed (by the Gestapo subsequent to the execution) but if some, then why not all? And if they were removed then the individuals might not appear on subsequent post-War reconciliations of numbers/names/camps? The more I look at this, the more I fear my age/infirmity is making me miss some quite simple/obvious explanation!
    I would be grateful for your help!
    Peter Davies
    Meteorology is a science; good meteorology is an art!
    We might not know - but we might know who does!

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    Default Re: The Great Escape List Accuracy

    I think some of the info from lists is that which was created after wars end of repatriation - so maybe those died or murdered not always on the list ?

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    Default Re: The Great Escape List Accuracy

    Peter

    Birkland's RCAF file on ancestry.co.uk has a report from 1949, recording the visit of Squadron Leader E.C. Rideal, Polish Detachement, M.R.E.S. who visited the memorial at Sagan to the R.A.F., Dominion, and Allied escapers from Satalg Luft III who had been shot and cremated.

    It has a list of names and serial numbers of 34 of those airmen whose ashes were interred in urns at Sagan. Of those, 28 were found intact, identified and recovered, and 6 of which had been disturbed and the individual ashes could not be identified, but it does record their names and Service Numbers. All were re-interred at Poznan.

    Let me know if you'd like a copy. I think perhaps the other R.C.A.F. airmen's files may have more information, if you want me to have a look?

    Regards

    Simon
    Researching R.A.F. personnel from the North East of England

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    Default Re: The Great Escape List Accuracy

    Simon,
    Tks yrs. I think it best to leave it for a few days to see what (if anything!) turns up. CWGC has a lot of stuff (Registration/Concentration data) which I may go through later. My main concern was to determine why these fellas were not on the POW List when they were clearly POWs!! And if they are/were missing, how many others might there be?? - and why??
    TIA
    Peter Davies
    Meteorology is a science; good meteorology is an art!
    We might not know - but we might know who does!

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    Default Re: The Great Escape List Accuracy

    Dear Simon,
    Thank you. I said that I may be wrong...... Eden not Churchill. Good spotting.
    BW
    James

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