Hawker Hurricane anomalies

[Andy Marden]

Thanks for checking.
Nothing there which rules out my "theory".

[Andy Marden]

Our database entry for P3203 has caught my eye: https://www.rafcommands.com/database...php?uniq=P3203

As can be seen, it records two incidents:
30 Aug 40 F/O Morris (hit He111 and baled out)
29 Sep 40
Clearly, they can't both be correct.
Only the summary of events for 79 Sqn seems to have survived: https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/D8454232

For 30 Aug 40, it says: "8 aircraft took off from Biggin Hill at about 1130.......saw Blue 1 F/O Morris crash, he baled out and is safe....F/O Morris's machine is written off and he obtained 1 He.111 destroyed by collision"
BoBTN says "P3203. Collided with He111... 11.10am. Crashed ...Brockham. Pilot Officer (sic) E J Morris baled out unhurt"
FCL 1 does not mention this incident at all. It records P/O E J Marshall baling out of V6624 over Smarden, Kent at 1140 after attack on He111. However, this was an 85 Sqn loss.

For 29 Sep 40, it says: "...P/O Nelson-Edwards reported missing. ... P/O Nelson-Edwards picked up safe at sea."
BoBTN says "P3203. Hit by return fire...crashed in the Irish Sea. Pilot Officer G H Nelson-Edwards baled out unhurt...".
FCL 1 reports the incident, but with no serial.

So it looks like BoBTN might be the source of the confusion. Reference to the AM78 for P3203 shows that it was SOC on 30 Sep 40.
If there were two losses, what was the serial of the other one?

[davew]

Andy

The 79 Squadron a/c lost on the 29 September would appear to be P5178, Mayhew PF, 74436, which force landed in The Irish Republic. The a/c was handed over to Irish Air Force. (MotBoB)

The Nelson Edwards incident was on the 27th according to MotBoB.

Since posting the above I have looked up my notes and find that the late J.Halley of Air Britain told me that Nelson Edwards' a/c was P5177, Peters' was P2719 and Mayhew's P5178.

DaveW

[GSinclair]

Some of this is using the RAF Commands information.

Message #5
Z3755 19MU 14-7-41 Abbotsinch 22-8-41 ‘HMS Furious’ (Scarlet) 31-8-41 Malta ME 9-41 258Sq Abandoned after controls failed fell into sea off Colombo 20-10-42 FH108:25 FSgt PI Hickes safe
Z4375 5MU 23-3-41 Donibristle 5-41 ‘HMS Victorious’ (Harley) 31-5-41 Malta 14-6-41 ME 102MU store 17-6-41 450Sq 28-6-41 SOC FB 25-8-42

Message #7
L1941 504Sq 29-5-39 CE FB 14-5-40 SqLdr JB Parnall+
L1943 504Sq 10-5-39 1Sq 28-5-40 Shot down by Bf110s CE FB 15-5-40 P/O SAC Sibley+
P2694 5MU 8-3-40 1Sq 29-4-40 1RSU 29-4-40 1Sq 3-5-40 6RSU abandoned Vouziers 15-5-40 SOC 5-40 F/O PHM Richey

Message #12
L2099 29Sq 29-8-39 17Sq 4-10-39 601Sq 9-3-40 ATO 10-6-40 19MU 3-7-40 7OTU 20-7-40 R-R 29-7-40 20MU 24-8-40 303Sq 9-9-40 56OTU 1-2-41 R-R 5-5-41 cv IIa DG637 ex L2099 15MU 30-8-41 47MU 4-9-41 shipped 9-9-41 USSR (Spl) (Operation Brake)

Message #21, 22
P3053 5MU 8-6-40 46Sq 19-6-40 Damaged by Bf109s nr Maidstone and crash-landed Meopham Green Kent CB 8-9-40 Glosters 13-9-40 recat CE F/O Peter Reginald MCGREGOR (73002)
P3066 10MU 12-6-40 46Sq 19-6-40 13MU 21-8-40 46Sq 22-8-40 Crashed on landing on return from patrol Stapleford CE FB 4-9-40 Sgt Herbert Ernest BLACK (740749)+
V7406 15MU 25-8-40 151Sq 2-9-40 Swung on take-off and hit crane Stapleford Tawney CE FA dbf 4-9-40 Plt Offr Richard AMBROSE (73040)+

Message #24
Z2523 5MU 21-12-40 302Sq 6-3-41 ‘WX-G’ CE FB 8-5-41 SOC 24-5-41 Sgt Marian Boguslaw DOMAGALA (780671)
Z3095 10MU 26-3-41 32Sq no date CAT E no date (302Sq 3-41 ‘WX-N’?) SOC 20-5-41 Porucznik Zygmund Jan KINEL (P/0172)+?
Z3098 10MU 27-3-41 302Sq 11-4-41 'WX-A’ SOC 8-5-41 P/O Czeslaw Marian GLOWCZYNSKI (P1495)?
Z3435 15MU 30-4-41 302Sq 9-5-41 ‘WX-B’ Collided with Z3433 on approach Kenley CE FB 11-5-41 FH6:45 Porucznik AR Narucki (Pol)+ 43 Gp DA 12-5-41 SOC 21-5-41

John Foreman has 2 Hurricanes lost on 8 May, Z2523 (Domagala) and Z3435 (Laguna).

Message #25
Z5260 5MU 9-8-41 52MU 22-8-41 1PATP 'Mobeka' 16-9-41 Takoradi ferried 10-41 ME 274Sq Missing on sweep to Tobruk SOC 7-12-41 FH96:50 Plt Offr Frank Howie SUTTON (J/5027)+
Z5066 10MU 1-7-41 Down Farm 10-7-41 82MU 31-7-41 ‘Ramsay’ 8-8-41 Takoradi ferried 10-41 ME 274Sq SOC 15-12-41 bboc 1-11-43 NWA 30-11-43 SOC 28-2-45 Sgt Arnold Lester HANES (901167)

Message #32

P2719 5MU 16-3-40 79Sq 24-5-40 Shot down in combat over Hythe and abandoned CE FB 29-9-40 Fg Offr George Charles Boyce PETERS (40593)+ SOC 7-10-40
P3203 19MU 2-7-40 79Sq 13-7-40 Damaged by return fire from He111 and abandoned over Irish Sea 29-9-40 (Collided with He111 30-8-40?) F/O Edward James MORRIS (40132) SOC 30-9-40
P5177 27MU 26-4-40 79Sq 1-9-40 Missing from interception over Irish Sea 29-9-40, SOC 7-10-40 F/O George Hassall NELSON-EDWARDS (74355) SOC 29-9-40
P5178 27MU 26-4-40 79Sq 1-9-40 f/l in Eire 29-9-40 To Irish AC F/O Paul Francis MAYHEW (74336) SOC 29-9-40

[Andy Marden]

Dave, Geoff,
Thanks for your inputs.
Dealing with P3203 first, I am satisfied that this was indeed lost on 30 Aug 40 after a mid-air collision with a He111. I have adjusted our database accordingly.
The three 79 Sqn losses on 29 Sep 40 were, as listed, P2719, P5177, P5178.
Andy

[Andy Marden]

Message #5
Z3755 19MU 14-7-41 Abbotsinch 22-8-41 ‘HMS Furious’ (Scarlet) 31-8-41 Malta ME 9-41 258Sq Abandoned after controls failed fell into sea off Colombo 20-10-42 FH108:25 FSgt PI Hickes safe
Z4375 5MU 23-3-41 Donibristle 5-41 ‘HMS Victorious’ (Harley) 31-5-41 Malta 14-6-41 ME 102MU store 17-6-41 450Sq 28-6-41 SOC FB 25-8-42

Database entry for Z3755 amended to mention incorrect ORB entry of "Z3375":
http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=Z3755

[Andy Marden]

Message #7
L1941 504Sq 29-5-39 CE FB 14-5-40 SqLdr JB Parnall+
L1943 504Sq 10-5-39 1Sq 28-5-40 Shot down by Bf110s CE FB 15-5-40 P/O SAC Sibley+
P2694 5MU 8-3-40 1Sq 29-4-40 1RSU 29-4-40 1Sq 3-5-40 6RSU abandoned Vouziers 15-5-40 SOC 5-40 F/O PHM Richey

First two amended:
http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=L1941
http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=L1943
I think P2694 is a little more problematic. This is currently listed as being lost on 19 May 40: http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=P2694
so does not seem to be a candidate for an aircraft abandoned on 15 May 40.

[Andy Marden]

Message #21, 22
P3053 5MU 8-6-40 46Sq 19-6-40 Damaged by Bf109s nr Maidstone and crash-landed Meopham Green Kent CB 8-9-40 Glosters 13-9-40 recat CE F/O Peter Reginald MCGREGOR (73002)
P3066 10MU 12-6-40 46Sq 19-6-40 13MU 21-8-40 46Sq 22-8-40 Crashed on landing on return from patrol Stapleford CE FB 4-9-40 Sgt Herbert Ernest BLACK (740749)+
V7406 15MU 25-8-40 151Sq 2-9-40 Swung on take-off and hit crane Stapleford Tawney CE FA dbf 4-9-40 Plt Offr Richard AMBROSE (73040)+

This has been a useful exercise as it has enabled me to correct more errors in the database, eg V7406's loss appearing as both a Spitfire and a Hurricane! This has now been corrected:
http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=V7406
P3053 "incident" 8 Sep 40, SOC 5 Nov 40 (after going to Glosters as you note) - this fits with McGregor, so we now have:
http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=P3053
I am still struggling to get my head around the other one. Reference to the AM78 cards shows:
P3066 "incident" 4 Sep 40, SOC 14 Nov 40
So are we saying that P3066 was repaired after the 4 Sep 40, only to be lost on 29 Oct 40 (Black died of wounds on 9 Nov 40)?

[Andy Marden]

Message #25
Z5260 5MU 9-8-41 52MU 22-8-41 1PATP 'Mobeka' 16-9-41 Takoradi ferried 10-41 ME 274Sq Missing on sweep to Tobruk SOC 7-12-41 FH96:50 Plt Offr Frank Howie SUTTON (J/5027)+
Z5066 10MU 1-7-41 Down Farm 10-7-41 82MU 31-7-41 ‘Ramsay’ 8-8-41 Takoradi ferried 10-41 ME 274Sq SOC 15-12-41 bboc 1-11-43 NWA 30-11-43 SOC 28-2-45 Sgt Arnold Lester HANES (901167)

Both entries amended:
http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=Z5066
http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=Z5260
Z5066 was obviously re-captured later.

[davew]

Andy

London BoB Monument confirms that P3066 was the a/c in which Herbert Black was fatally injured 29 October.

DaveW