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Thread: Hawker Hurricane anomalies

  1. #1
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    Default Hawker Hurricane anomalies

    Just came across this, it's probably well known.
    http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=N2362
    states that N2362 was lost on 9 May 40 with 87 Sqn. This is correct, it has been discussed elsewhere on this forum.
    However, there are references in the same entry to the Flt Lt J C Milner (note, his name is incorrectly given as MIL:NER with an inserted colon) being captured on 19 May 40 while flying this aircraft:
    http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...ls/r/C14502091
    I think this is incorrect. Flt Lt Milner of 32 Sqn was flying N2462, as listed in "The Battle of France, Then and Now" and elsewhere:
    http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=N2462
    I don't know if this is a typo in the description by the National Archives, or if the serial is wrong in the actual file.

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    Default Re: Hawker Hurricane anomalies

    There are a lot of discrepancies with aircraft lost during the Battle of France. Without looking into this particular incident in more detail I can comment that during my research with 607 Squadron, often replacement aircraft from other units were flown by pilots of other Squadrons.

    Your best bet is to check out the Form 78 for the aircraft and double check the Squadron ORB's, assuming they have survived. There are errors in The Battle of France Then and Now and Twelve Days in May, but both publications have been the best source of information until the relatively recent release of the Casualty Packs, which have shed new light on a number of losses during this time.
    Jim Corbett

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to JimCorbett1977 For This Useful Post:

    Andy Marden (14th May 2021)

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    Default Re: Hawker Hurricane anomalies

    Jim,
    Thanks. I'm pretty sure the version I laid out is correct. I have lodged a query with TNA to see if the description of their file contains a typo, or the file itself.
    Andy

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    Default Re: Hawker Hurricane anomalies

    Just to close the loop on this one, TNA have confirmed that the file description at:
    http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...ls/r/C14502091
    stating N2362 is correct in terms of what it says in the file.
    So it seems that there is an error in the file, which is not that unusual of course.

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    Default Re: Hawker Hurricane anomalies

    I would like to add the following

    Z4330 ?

    http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=Z4330

    Noted as having been lost with 301 MU (ORB) 16 Mar Operating Airfield Drigh Road Salvage Party sent out for the ac near Hub River. No further details


    And also noted as a SAAF Hurricane
    AIR81/13273 Lieutenant J S Gouws (SAAF): prisoner of war; Hurricane Z4330, 40 Squadron SAAF; aircraft failed to return from an operational flight over Chichiban-el-Ezzeiat, Western Desert, 9 April 1942,.


    So thats two Ids I am trying to nail down.


    Also

    Z3375
    http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=Z3375

    Could this be Z4375?

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    Default Re: Hawker Hurricane anomalies

    Hello,
    GE didn’t understand “Chichiban-el-Ezzeiat”. Anybody know where it is? The first name doesn't sound very Arabic - the last does.
    In my formative RAF years I spent quite a lot of time in the mostly featureless Cyrenaican "bundoo". Would be nice to locate Lt Gouws' area of ops!
    TIA
    Peter Davies

    PS El Ezzeiat is at GE 32.247733 22.664861 half-way along the “road” from Tmimi to Mechili in the Derna District of Cyrenaica. Still very dangerous from discarded/hidden munitions in the mid-1950s. Hard country!
    Last edited by Resmoroh; 20th May 2021 at 07:40. Reason: Additions (last sentence)
    Meteorology is a science; good meteorology is an art!
    We might not know - but we might know who does!

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    Default Re: Hawker Hurricane anomalies

    Another problem aircraft is L1943.
    Starting with TNA, it lists L1943 as being the aircraft flown by P/O Sibley of 504 Sqn when lost on 15 May 40:
    http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...ls/r/C14502094
    This is mirrored in our database:
    http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=L1943
    although it (wrongly?) states the unit as 1 Sqn
    Both BoF and Fighter Command Losses say that Sibley was lost in L1941 on 14 May 40. It is not that unusual of course for official dates of death to be one day out.
    However, TNA file says that L1941 was lost on 14 May while being flown by S/Ldr Parnell: http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...ls/r/C14502096

    To further complicate matters, BoF and Fighter Command Losses state that L1943 was shot down on 15 May when serving with 1 Sqn. The pilot is named as F/O Paul Richey (author of "Fighter Pilot"), who baled out.

    So it seems we have two serials (L1941, L1943) for three losses (Parnell, Richey, Sibley).
    Can anyone add any more please?

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    Default Re: Hawker Hurricane anomalies

    In "The Battle of France Then and Now", 1 Sqn is recorded as losing a Hurricane (serial unknown) on 14 June 1940 when it FTR from a patrol over St Nazaire. It says "Flight Lieutenant F. Warcup bailed out and captured".
    Our POW database only lists one Warcup:
    http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...CUP&qnum=33294
    which is presumably the same chap, as he was also from 1 Sqn.
    However, his date of capture is listed as 29 June 1940.
    Generally, the book tends to say "evaded and captured later" or similar if that happens.
    Can anyone add any more please?

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    Default Re: Hawker Hurricane anomalies

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Marden View Post
    In "The Battle of France Then and Now", 1 Sqn is recorded as losing a Hurricane (serial unknown) on 14 June 1940 when it FTR from a patrol over St Nazaire. It says "Flight Lieutenant F. Warcup bailed out and captured".
    Also noted in the AIR81, which gives the date as 29 June 40
    AIR81/2324 Flight Lieutenant P E Warcup: prisoner of war; force landed at Evreux, France, Hurricane (tail number not recorded), 1 Squadron, 29 June 1940. C16471595

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    Default Re: Hawker Hurricane anomalies

    Jagan,
    Thanks, looks like an error in "The Battle of France Then and Now".
    Andy

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