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Thread: W/O Ralph Charles Wingrove 545011 RAF KAO 1945

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    Default W/O Ralph Charles Wingrove 545011 RAF KAO 1945

    Following some recent family correspondence about Ralph Wingrove (211 Squadron Sgt W/Op AG, Nov 1938-Oct 1940) I've been looking for further information about the loss of 1653 HCU Lancaster III ND647 on 8 April 1945 with the death of all six crew inl W/O Wingrove.

    While I have the Chorley BC Losses Vol 8 (HCU) summary and can view the AM Form 1180 for ND647 at Lancaster Bombers, I'm puzzled to find that in TNA Discovery searches I cannot spot either
    the 1653 Heavy Conversion Unit Operations Record Book in the AIR classes (or indeed any HCU ORB!)
    nor any AIR 81 P4 Casualty file for the loss (not under aircraft id, Pilot's name, or Wingrove's name).

    The dbs here at RAF Commands include summary details for the aircraft and crew, without pointers to either of these.

    Perhaps I took too many stupid pills this am, so if any member can point me to either of these records in UK National Archives, I'd be grateful.


    Sgt, later W/O, RC Wingrove 1920-1945:
    http://www.211squadron.org/r_wingrove.html
    Last edited by Don Clark; 4th March 2023 at 01:39.
    Toujours propos

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    Default Re: W/O Ralph Charles Wingrove 545011 RAF KAO 1945

    Fresh from the Pierian Spring:

    1653 Conversion Unit
    https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/C7160903

    So, the ORB found as originally expected in AIR 29. Noted that the ref is simply to "Conversion Unit" - same usage in Sturtivant RAF Flying Training and Support Units.

    The AIR 81 P4 Casualty file remains elusive, any assistance there gratefully rec'd
    Toujours propos

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    Default Re: W/O Ralph Charles Wingrove 545011 RAF KAO 1945

    The casualty files are being released to TNA in batches - the latest batch available for viewing is up to 1942

    https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...h/C16484/clast

    For 1945 you should apply to RAFAHB - they will say if they still have them or if they have been sent for processing at the TNA.

    By Feb 1944 No.1653, in common with many Conversion Units and minor training units, had the duty of filing Form 540 removed due to manpower shortages. This duty passed usually to a more senior unit on the aerodrome eg Station HQ.

    So the ORB stops at Feb 1944 you need to look in AIR28 at Chedburgh ORB and appendix

    Probably a more relevant document is a rarely seen Flying Control Log book - only a few made it to preservation

    https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ails/r/C590458

    Ross
    Last edited by Ross_McNeill; 4th March 2023 at 08:29.
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    Default Re: W/O Ralph Charles Wingrove 545011 RAF KAO 1945

    Thank you very much indeed, Ross.

    Progressive Cas file release, of course. Completely slipped my mind - though it's covered here often enough. Dear oh dear.

    Then most interesting to read of the Conversion Unit etc Diaries etc... details completely new to me, and maybe others now or later.

    All a great help for which I am most grateful. I'll pass it on to the family.
    Toujours propos

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    Default Re: W/O Ralph Charles Wingrove 545011 RAF KAO 1945

    Would this be the same Ralph Wingrove who served with the Royal Bucks Regiment in WW1 ?

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    Default Re: W/O Ralph Charles Wingrove 545011 RAF KAO 1945

    Alex, no, definitely not the same.

    As recounted on my linked page above, db here and his CWGC entry...
    Ralph Charles Wingrove was born in 1920 to Percival Charles and Elsie Winifred Wingrove (ne Carter).
    From RAF enlistment Oct 37, in Nov 38 RCW was posted to 211 Sqn in the Middle East as an Aircraftman First class & newly qualified Wireless Op aged 18.
    Promoted to Sgt WOp/AG and 18 ops with 211 Sqn to Oct 1940, at some date thereafter posted Home (further enquiries pending).
    He was 24 when he died in the UK 1653 HCU Lancaster accident April 1945.

    Wingrove is not that uncommon a name in Service circles inc RAF - whether or how closely related any of them might have been, cannot say.
    Last edited by Don Clark; 5th March 2023 at 03:12.
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    Default Re: W/O Ralph Charles Wingrove 545011 RAF KAO 1945

    A closing note for my part in this thread for W/O Wingrove...

    The Imperial War Museum includes this quite detailed and illustrated record of the local commemorative plaque:
    https://www.iwm.org.uk/memorials/item/memorial/55086
    While the plaque has him as Ralf, all other formal records (CWGC, Birth reg, family corresp and etc) have him as Ralph.

    W/O Ralph Charles Wingrove 545011 (211 Squadron Sgt W/Op AG, Nov 1938-Oct 1940) 1920-1945:
    http://www.211squadron.org/r_wingrove.html
    Last edited by Don Clark; 10th March 2023 at 05:29.
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