Mess in the mess, so about functions and duties

**Franek Grabowski** · 5th September 2023, 01:06

Gents

I came across some mess issues, that I have tried to sort out, but it turned not easy. Going the easy way, I have checked Wiki, and that is what it says.

"A mess is run by the Mess Committee, a group democratically elected by the members of the mess (except wardrooms), but normally agreed by the commanding officer or regimental sergeant major.

President Mess Committee (PMC) - (Officers' Mess) or Chairman of the Mess Committee[citation needed] (Sergeants'/Petty Officers' Mess)
Vice President of the Mess Committee (Mr Vice), who is responsible for toasts during mess dinners. He or she is rarely the deputy of the PMC (normally this is the Secretary) but instead the most junior person in the mess.
Treasurer
Secretary (Sec), who is responsible for records and minutes, etc.
Wines Member, who is responsible for keeping the bar stocked.
House Member, who is responsible for furniture and infrastructure.
Entertainments (Ents) Member, for any special events or parties in the mess."

I guess that this structure was more less the same in the wartime RAF. But then I came across this discussion, and it confused me a little. http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/sho...Mess-Secretary
Alas, who kept all the books and signed all the bills for food and beverages that had o be contracted?
Finally, Wines Member - I do not recall anyone drinking wine in a mess. Was not the term Bar Officer used instead?

TIA

Franek

**jonny** · 5th September 2023, 15:54

Each mess would have had a SNCO who was the Mess Manager. This was a full time job, separate to the Mess Committee which consisted of mess members (obviously officers in the officers mess), with the very occasional civvy thrown in for good measure, covering off such vital ground as Wines, Entertainment, Property, Messing, etc. For 'wines,' think all alcoholic drinks. Mess accounts were normally split into public (government money) and non-public funds (officer's money topped up with subscriptions). These all reported in turn to the President of the Mess Committee, or PMC, who was most often a senior officer and the bod who made the final decisions. Sub committees were often formed to organise major events, such as balls etc. The Mess Secretary dealt with invitations to mess meetings, drafted mess committee minutes, and generally brought the whole thing together. Post war cuts introduced the concept of civilian mess managers, which they are virtually all are now.
The Mess Manager was responsible for the day to day management of the mess and the staff employed there. Most stations also had a catering section run by an officer or WO (often the Station chief cook / butcher) and these were the folks who paid for the food centrally coming into the station from local retailers, received the food that was issued from government sources, initially stored the food, and then issued it to messes, etc. Some of this was quite expensive so it was behind lock and key. They were also ultimately responsible for health and hygiene in the kitchens and quality control.

It had a lot of moving parts really.

Rgds

Jonny

**Franek Grabowski** · 6th September 2023, 01:40

Thanks Jonny, it clears the thing a little. I must dig up memories of an ex-RIAF/RPAF officer, who described in some detail virtues and risks of his job.
The question is about terminology. In a few accounts I have seen a mention of a Bar Officer and not a Wines Member. From the description it looks exactly the same function. Also, from the various memories, it looks like the situation was a little bit different in old established stations and those formed for the duration of war, and I mean home and not overseas. Was this sanctioned or a necessity of the period?
Franek

**jonny** · 6th September 2023, 15:11

Franek,

The mess committee post of 'Wines Member' still exists in many army messes today. As the RAF took on many of its early traditions from the British Army, I don't believe that inter-war RAF messes (like their army counterparts) actually had bars per se. You'll see examples of this in the films The Dambusters and Angels One Five, where drinks are being taken in the ante-room, served by a mess steward, who also took orders. They were sometimes ordered through a small hatch in the mess and delivered by the steward. This has obviously been relaxed over the years, and I can envisage the change happening during WW2, when traditions (and standards?) were relaxed due to the egalitarian nature of the commissioned community. Once bars came into vogue in RAF messes, so did the post of Bar Member. The RAF has strayed a tad from Army standards, it has to be said. RAF Brize Norton even has a condom machine in their officer's mess lavatory these days. The shame of it!

Rgds

Jonny

**Franek Grabowski** · 6th September 2023, 16:24

Thanks Jonny again. I guess, then, this may have been a colloquial term used by airmen, and not an official name.
When bars made to the RAF?
Aside, condom machines might be very useful for entertainment as well as for defence purposes, providing barrage balloons!
Franek

**jonny** · 6th September 2023, 16:46

I'm ex RAF (commissioned 1988), but I've been regular army now for 30 years. Not all army officers messes have bars (we certainly didn't in my cavalry regiment), but it is rare to see an RAF mess without one (including slot machines - I weep sometimes!). Some of the older members may remember bars way before my time, but I'm thinking they were probably introduced post WW2.

Rgds

Jonny